Your Voice: Lists, Lists, and More Lists
Submitted by Gary Anderson
Let me bring up something that’s been bugging me for a long time. While there’s been some talk about this subject, I haven’t seen anyone specifically addressing what I’m going to bring up.
I’m starting to wonder how many lists there are. The reason I say this will become clear (hope hope) by the time I’ve finished writing this.
List #1: Michael’s List
Klugh gave Michael a list of names. The names on the list were Sawyer, Kate, Jack and Hurley. Now, Hurley was only there to relay a message back to the castaways, telling them to leave the Others alone, don’t come looking for your people. Jack, as we know, was brought along because Ben had a tumor on his spine, and Jack happens to be a Spinal Surgeon.
What about Sawyer and Kate? I suppose the obvious answer was that there were a lot of rocks to be moved, and the Others just felt too lazy to do it for themselves. Is that really all there is to it? I can’t imagine that that’s true. The fact that the Others have pretty much been dissolved at this point, except for Ben and Juliet, means that it’s becoming more and more evident that this little thorn in my side is going to forever remain unknown. There are other Others out there, led by Richard Alpert I’m guessing, off somewhere that we don’t know about. But, for the most part, it’s just Ben and Juliet, as far as the current storytelling is going.
List #2: Jacob’s list
Are these two one and the same? I tend to think not, because as Pickett said to one of the other Others, "Shephard wasn’t even on Jacob’s list." So what’s the deal there? There are a couple of things that raise flags when it comes to Pickett saying that.
Why would Pickett know what names are on Jacob’s list? Ben’s the only one who speaks to Jacob. No one else. Naturally, we could assume that Ben is lying when he tells Locke that no one else sees Jacob. However, when Locke tells Mikhail that Ben is taking him to see Jacob, the reaction in the crowd is one that suggests that Ben is telling the truth about this.
So why would Pickett know what’s on the list? Would Ben honestly tell someone as low on the totem pole as Pickett about the list? Sure, he rocked as an FBI agent busting hot stewardesses smuggling money into the country for gunrunners in another life, but on THIS island, he doesn’t have that sway. So it is highly unlikely to me that he would know anything about Jacob’s list. And I can’t imagine Ben being as sloppy as to say, "Here’s Jacob’s list, and oh yeah, by the way, pick up that doctor while you’re at it."
So, once again: What list is Pickett referring to? The one that he perhaps THINKS is Jacob’s list?
Could it be…..
LIST #3: Mikhail’s List
Here’s where it really throws me for a loop. Mikhail, when captured by Sayid, Locke and Kate, taunts them by telling them that they are not on the list because they are angry, weak and scared. So, by THAT logic, that would cancel out a whole lot of the castaways, going by their histories.
This doesn’t really make sense, because Ben and the Others clearly want Locke. He’s got a connection with Jacob, which only reinforces the idea that Locke is definitely special and has a special connection with the Island. So, is Mikhail lying? Is he taunting John specifically, as when he started to reveal that Locke was paralyzed? Perhaps. It could be because he realizes that Locke could step in and take his place as the trusted one of Ben.
And if Mikhail is correct that Locke, Sayid, and Kate are not on the list, then that throws another monkey wrench into List #1 (Michael’s), because Kate was on that list as well. Coupled with the Locke stuff I just went over, this leads me to believe that Mikhail could just be taunting the three and really has no idea about the lists.
There’s one more thing to think about that calls into question their whole method of picking people who are "special."
When Ben brought Locke into the fold, he told him that he wasn’t ready. Ben said that because Locke couldn’t kill his father, he was still holding on to past issues. Until he got over those, he would never be ready to fulfill his possibilities and expectations.
By that logic, I don’t think there’s a single person who survived the plane crash that would qualify. As of this writing, the only person that has really overcome the issues that were hounding them from the beginning would possibly be Sawyer, who got to kill his tormentor in the form of Anthony Cooper. He exorcised his demons by killing the man responsible for his parents’ death.
Is there really anyone else that has let go of everything? Perhaps Rose and Bernard? Other than them, I can’t think of anyone that would qualify under Ben’s guideline. And in THAT situation, the lists get MUCH shorter.
So what’s the deal with the lists, people? How many lists are there, and what the hell is Pickett talking about with Shephard not being on Jacob’s list? Could he honestly know whether or not Jack was on the list? Unless he heard it straight from Jacob, I doubt it.
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This is a big topic but I will say that Michael’s list, imo, has nothing to do with the lists mentioned by the Others, such as Jacob’s list. It was merely the list of people they wanted him to bring for a specific purpose. Kate and Sawyer were on it because Ben knew that he could use Jack’s feelings for Kate to manipulate him into doing the surgery.
The lists of the Others (e.g. “I want lists in 3 days”, Jacob’s list etc …) are the real mystery.
Comment by BobW — March 19, 2008 @ 2:04 pm
Sawyer and Kate were on Ben’s list because Ben knew he needed to “find what gets to Jack” and use it to get him to perform surgery on him. The scene of him and Juliet in Expose gets at this. Beyond that, they were looking to get Kate knocked up (I think) and hence the easy-to-break-out-of cage and innocent sundress.
Comment by Giovanni — March 19, 2008 @ 2:30 pm
Talking of lists, wasnt there a reference in Juliets recent episode in a flashback, whilst she was having dinner with Ben? I seem to recall him saying “who are we to question who’s on the list”?
I think BobW is right, Michaels list from Klugh was meant specifically for a purpose and I beleive that Ben / Jacobs lists are different, but they do have a major significance in the show. It does seem that this has been put to one side for the time being, but im certain that it will be addressed in the foeseeable…
Comment by Stu Morgan — March 19, 2008 @ 2:38 pm
I knew the reason for Kate, although I forgot to put it in there. And Sawyer I suppose makes sense to get Kate to do what they wanted her to do (convince Jack to go along with the surgery).
I think this all stems from Pickett saying that “Shephard wasn’t even on Jacob’s list” and A. why would he know who was on Jacob’s list, as Ben’s the only one who talks to Jacob. and B. What list? There’s so many “lists” being talked about on the show, but which was the list from Jacob?
Comment by Gary — March 19, 2008 @ 2:49 pm
Kate & Sawyer were on Michael’s list to use as leverage to force Jack to do the surgery. Sawyer is leverage against Kate and Kate is leverage against Jack. I thought this was pretty clearly explained and shown in the first six episodes of season 3.
Also, both Mikhail & Goodwin referred to ‘the list’ . Pickett told Tom that he didnt understand why Ben would help Jack because he wasnt on Jacob’s list.
If Ben is the only one to talk to Jacob then I’m sure that he told everyone that ,”Jacob gave me a list” . Besides, just because a list is made doesnt mean that they cant be modified or added to later on. Especially if Ben is interpreting Jacob’s list, Im sure he can reinterpret it however and whenever he wants. More than likely Jacob had nothing to do with ‘Jacob’s list’ and it was just Ben using the files on the various passengers to decide who is good and bad.
Personally I would like to see a flashback episode on Cindy, the kids, and the other 815′ers who were taken off the beach. It would be interesting to see how these people could be convinced to join the Others.
Comment by Steve — March 19, 2008 @ 4:03 pm
But the problem with that, Steve, comes in when you realize that Jacob has been set up as some kinda Messiah type figure to The Others. Ben is the leader, in part, I’m thinking because he’s the only one who speaks with Jacob.
So if Jacob, as their glorious highly regarded and held in high esteem …whatever he is, gives Ben a list, or gives the Others a list, why would Ben or anyone presume it’s okay to alter it? To modify it to their own needs?
Not to compare Jacob to God anymore than I’ve already done so, but that’s like God giving Moses the Ten Commandments, and then Moses deciding to add some that he wants or maybe take some off that he doesn’t agree with.
At that point it ceases being God’s Commandments and becomes Moses’ commandments.
Same here. For Ben to presume that he could change the list would be just outrageous to me, and that is exemplified by Pickett’s telling Tom that Jack wasn’t on Jacob’s list.
And once again that comes down to how would Pickett know? Was Ben THAT sloppy or just not caring that he would say “here’s Jacob’s list, and by the way I added a name on there?”
Why would he not just add Jack’s name and say THAT was Jacob’s list?
Too many questions regarding these lists.
and also as I’ve read back over what I wrote, I’m thinking that perhaps Mikhail was referring to Ethan and Goodwin’s lists as “The List”. Saying that Sayid, Kate and Locke were not on the List because they were weak, afraid and angry. They were not recruited into the Others camp like Cindy and the kids were because of their flaws.
so that coulda been the list that Mikhail was referring to.
Comment by Gary — March 19, 2008 @ 4:51 pm
Moses and the ten commandments, good example. I think its pretty safe to say, that when it comes to religion, people often take what they think is the word of God and interpret it however they want. If there’s a list, they’ll add to it and even change it however they see fit. It’s what people do, and have been doing since this whole religion crap got started.
So it’s makes total sense that Ben would take a list given to him by Jacob and change it into whatever he wants. Men abuse power. Always have and always will.
Comment by TheDude — March 19, 2008 @ 11:56 pm
TheDude, yeah I get ya. As a Christian it drives me crazy when I see people on TV in positions of authority (at least of their own creation) and they twist the word of God to fit what they want it to say.
The Word doesn’t change, people may change it to fit their beliefs, but it doesn’t change. We may not still adhere to a lot of the old rituals, and I’m not saying I don’t have issues with some things in there, but it’s the Word and that’s that, I suppose.
But I think that while Ben could very well have edited the list and added who he wanted, it begs the question AGAIN (And I know I’m repeating myself, forgive me) WHY WOULD PICKETT KNOW? There’s only ONE explanation, and that’s that Ben let the Others know that the list did not include Jack and that he was including Jack for his own reasons.
But I don’t understand why Ben would do that. He’s long been portrayed as someone who doesn’t tell everyone everything, even his most loyal person Mikhail who stood by him at every turn, wasn’t told about The Looking Glass station.
So I find it hard to believe that Ben would reveal that information to the Others. It seems more likely to me that he would have added Jack’s name to the list before revealing it to the Others, and no one would be the wiser.
And I don’t think we have found out who all was on Jacob’s list and what it was for.
The only lists we’ve been privy to so far is references to Ethan/Goodwin’s lists and Klugh’s
Comment by Gary — March 20, 2008 @ 1:17 am
While there have been a few lists of names, I think the only truly mysterious one that the writers have hinted at but held back from revealing is Jacob’s master list.
When the Tailies set up a camp on the beach they were attacked at night by the Others, one of whom Mr. Eko killed. That Other was carrying a list of names of people in the Tailie camp to kidnap, which included the children. I’m guessing that list was a subset of Jacob’s master list, not the complete list, or it would have included people from the fuselage as well.
What I’m wondering is, did Jacob’s master list exist before the plane even crashed, or did he come up with it afterward? If after, did he make it only shortly after the crash, or did Ethan and Goodwin first return a list of survivors to Ben, and Jacob picked from among those survivors? And what is required of a survivor to get on the list? What makes them special?
I don’t think the writers have abandoned this plot element. Like the Black Rock and the smoke monster, I think they’ve thought it out carefully and are saving a reveal for the appropriate time.
Comment by Ed Holden — March 20, 2008 @ 6:41 am
Gary, right now, I believe that Ben cannot even hear Jacob speak. I think that Ben put on a show for Locke in the cabin. Remember back to when Ben took Locke to see Jacob. Jacob spoke to Locke and said “Help Me” and Ben could not hear him say this. If he could, he wouldnt have asked Locke what he said.
It is my belief that Jacob is being kept captive and forced to do things against his will by Ben and Ben forces him to give information, perform miracles, cause people to get hit by busses or meteorites, etc…. I think that Ben is telling the rest of the Others whatever he wants and is using the name of “Jacob” in order to give these messages authority. Please remember the look on the Others’ faces when Locke announced that Ben was taking him to see Jacob. It was obvious to me that this was a priviledge that none of them had ever enjoyed.
I believe that in the past…Ben, using Jacob, has shown each of the others that Jacob truly exists by doing something incredible. For example, the look on Juliet’s face when Ben tells her that Jacob will save her sister is the kind of thing Im talking about. She absolutely believes it.
The difference I believe that most of you have than I do is that Jacob is not necessarily a willing participant and Ben (like he does with everyone else) has found some form of blackmail to force him to do his bidding.
On a side subject, in the case of Locke, I think that he was/is “angry”, but if the island ‘chose’ to heal him , I would imagine that perhaps the Others would try to take him regardless of his inclusion on the list. If Others are allowed to ‘make a case’ for people not on the list, like Goodwin did for Ana Lucia, then I’m sure this has happened before.
Comment by Steve — March 20, 2008 @ 8:42 am
As others have stated Michael’s list was for Ben’s purpose only. The other two lists are Jacob’s. The reason Pickett knows the names is because he was probably in the group that went and kidnapped them. Mikhail knows who’s on the list because Ben maybe needed info on the people who are on the list. I don’t think it would be a big deal for Ben to tell the others who are on the list, but what I want to know is, if Ben and the others know what the list is for?
Comment by JustinSA — March 20, 2008 @ 9:12 am
There really shouldn’t be much confusion here–there haven’t been too many lists. Michael’s list was for a specific reason, which was to get Jack to do the surgery on Ben’s spine. Kate and Sawyer were on it to manipulate Jack, and Hurley to tell everyone what had happened. The only other list is Jacob’s. So I guess your confusion perhaps stems from 1) whether Ben has manipulated and/or faked Jacob’s wishes for his own ends, making it hard to know whether the people on ‘Jacob’s’ list are who he wants and 2) all the talk about the list by Mikhail, Goodwin, Ethan, etc. But, really, they’re all referring to the same list, which is supposedly Jacob’s. So, in reality, I think all the confusion stems from 1), which we should find out as we learn more about Jacob.
Comment by JEM — March 20, 2008 @ 5:50 pm
I just got say it was good but to answer the question thats buzzing around when Pickett said Shepard isn’t on the list. I read that in the premiere of season 4 that was in fact Jacks dad Christian. Jacks dad is now a friend of Jacobs or something and in a mobisode jacks dad told vincent to go wake up his son . “he’s got work to do”
Comment by Jeremy — March 30, 2008 @ 2:27 pm