Theory Time - Rite Aid Confirms Christian Shephard Alive
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So one big question from the finale is this: is Christian Shephard alive? I got the answer from my local pharmacy, if Jack’s prescriptions were from Christian’s pad, there is no way in heck that they would be filled if he were dead. Now it is possibly his original prescription was forged from another doctor, but if it came through on Christian’s pad, it simply would not be filled because deceased doctors are immediately removed from the database to protect against the kind of misappropriation of meds that Jack was attempting.
The only way Christian would be alive is if Kate, Jack, and whoever else got off the island came out in an alternate time line.
Now, I’m sure this will raise the ire of some of you, particularly those who despise the alternate time line theories, but there are more indications than just Christian possibly being alive. Kate’s comment that "he" would be wondering where she was. That is purposeful ‘LOST’ ambiguity at its best. We are absolutely supposed to be wondering who ‘he’ is for the next eight months, and it isn’t because ‘he’ is Sawyer.
The alternative time line or reality seems a smidge out there, but so far seems to be the most likely explanation.
What about the appearance of Walt at the grave site with Locke? This could be alternative time line, or some sort of island manifestation, because in linear time Walt was off the island at that point. Its going to be a long eight months!
Comment by mmattm — May 29, 2007 @ 1:58 pm
This has been playing in my mind too…
Comment by OxfordAngel — May 29, 2007 @ 2:04 pm
I agree with Akbar. Notice how Jack left the second the doctor said she was going to call his father. Also when Jack went on the rampage to the new Chief of Surgery about “getting my father down here to see if he’s drunker than I am.” you can see the chief shaking his head.
I can understand the ambiguity behind these scenes, but I think that was all used to mask the fact that these were flash-forwards instead of flash-backs. Sometimes I think people look almost too much into these things
Comment by Jeremy — May 29, 2007 @ 2:05 pm
Since Kate isn’t in jail, maybe her father is still alive too.
Comment by Maurice Tift — May 29, 2007 @ 2:14 pm
Both Dr. Shepards were on the plane. Wonder if the powers of the island could conquer death which occured off the island?
Comment by anonymous — May 29, 2007 @ 2:14 pm
I agree they are in an alternate reality of some sort, but I don’t think it’s accidental.
Here’s the deal: We all know that there are “Other others” out there; I think Naomi was the first we met (sort of their equivalent to Ethan, but not so creepy).
When they come and everybody gets “rescued” the survivors are gonna be all like, “Hey, we got rescued” and therefore willing to overlook slight irregularities: Christian lives, Kate is free to come and go as she wishes, Charlie’s song - the one he composed in the looking glass - is on the radio. Maybe Hurely’s really lucky now and even Rose is cancer-free. But Jack, ever the introspective (okay, obsessive), will remember (and obsess over) that both of his enemies (Ben and John) told him “You’re not supposed to do this”.
This will eat away at him, thus leading to his drug-induced fixation on undoing it and returning to the island.
And that’s where we found him at the end of the finale.
Just a theory. Hope it’s not too crazy.
So, yeah, Christian is alive, but it’s part of the “Matrix” the other others have concieved.
Comment by tomfishstory — May 29, 2007 @ 2:14 pm
Ooops.
Conceived… I before E EXCEPT after C. Sorry.
Comment by tomfishstory — May 29, 2007 @ 2:15 pm
For all of the very good reason’s that are out there, I do not think that this is the evidence of an altered time line or even that Christian is alive. Alcohol and Oxycodone can make someone with a desire for personal destruction even a little more out there.
This may be a hint that Jack is living outside of time. It could be foreshadowing that Jack is indeed Jacob.
The main clue for an altered timeline is that Kate is no longer a fugitive. I doubt that the government would have given her a pardon even with Dharma’s influence.
Comment by TabulaRasa — May 29, 2007 @ 2:18 pm
Okay, other theory. Sorry.
A la “Beautiful Mind” Jack has gone mad and everybody just humors him about his dad being drunk up in his office in the hospital. They also just humor the poor deranged former surgeon and let him bop around the hospital under close scrutiny.
I can’t count how many times Darlton has told us that dad is DEAD. They would mislead, but not lie.
Comment by tomfishstory — May 29, 2007 @ 2:19 pm
Yeah I gotta go with the non-believers here… To me Christian is absolutely dead. You’re stretching it a little too much man.
Sorry to be so negative in my First Post Ever here but seriously.
So I agree with Akbar and Rain here, just a pad lying around Christian’s office that Jack somehow stole (it seems quite possible given how he steals his drugs after that scene).
And about the other quote (get my father from up there or something like that) I’m positive he was either super-sarcastic or drunk/under heavy influence of whatever drugs he took).
I bought that alternate timeline thing at the beginning, but the more I watch the show and episodes unfold, the most I think that a lot of people see a little too much iin this. Dudes, it’s a show, a great one, a different one, with hard-to-find clues and that plays on minds alright. But you just try to see too much in this. Like all references to all kinds of cultures, religions etc. I think that these references are there, it’s fun to hunt them, but I don’t think they mean so much in the end. Carlton and Damond told several times that the show is more about the characters. Paradoxally what keeps me hooked to the show is not really the characters pathetic lives - I don’t give a damn about El Senor Jack-ass who just deserves a punch in the face every tim he talks, or Mrs Kate-I-keep-running-from-everyone - but more the sci-fi side of Lost. Even though there are some characters I DO love (Desmond, Ben, Hugo, Sawyer, Locke and Juliet are so great), I’m more hooked to the mysteries - but not to the point I’ll get sleepless nights wondering WTF that white dot was doing next to the YELLOW one on the painting we saw for 1,5 frame in a shop where Jack bought a freakin’ hotdog (don’t re-rawatch the 3 seasons to find that - I made it up).
Well anyway it’s fun to read all these things I see around this site (and others), but I must admit that I’m a biggest fan of the Misfit than of some of the wackos (this said in a gentle way of course) I see here
Comment by sonicvince — May 29, 2007 @ 2:23 pm
I just can’t stop correcting myself!
Not “a la Beautiful Mind”. A la Hurley and Dave.
Comment by tomfishstory — May 29, 2007 @ 2:25 pm
Jack seems to be living outside of time, maybe like Jacob.
Comment by TabulaRasa — May 29, 2007 @ 2:35 pm
I’m not attacking, I just don’t consider this to be a “big question” from the finale. He was drunk and raving when he said to get his father down there to the chief of surgery, and the chief gave him a look like “Oh, you poor guy” because his dad is dead. If the point may be moot, then why even revisit it? Even if this were an alternate reality branching off from the island, his dad would still be dead because he was dead BEFORE the island. The split in realities would have had to occur before they even crashed on the island, and, if that were the case, why are we just now seeing flash forwards?
I am chilled. I just wish we could discuss something interesting instead of these little tangents that aren’t even consequential.
Comment by Jared — May 29, 2007 @ 2:43 pm
Regarding Kate being free: isn’t it possible she got off on a techincality? I don’t know what that could be, but people get can have cases against them dropped for a variety of reasons.
Comment by Pete317 — May 29, 2007 @ 3:02 pm
I have a great theory. Locke comes to the island and is no longer paralized. Jin is now fertle. Rose is still alive. Is it not possible that the coffin of Jacks dad in season 1 was empty beacause he was healed when he came to the island. It’s impossible to be paralized and then not paralized but it happened so why can’t someone come back from the dead. The writers said once you are dead on the island you are dead ON THE ISLAND it said Jacks dad died off the island. Jacks dad is somewhere on the island! Season 4 begins with a flasback of Jack’s dad getting out of his coffin. That is may theory and I’m sticking to it.
Comment by lost815 — May 29, 2007 @ 3:02 pm
I might be wrong - but didn’t Jack say something about his dad in the Hospital when he was arguing with the new chief of surgery. Didn’t he say something like “Go get my my dad, and if I am more drunk than he is, I will leave.” I know I am grossly misquoting - can someone confirm?
Comment by Jason Jones — May 29, 2007 @ 3:06 pm
Jason Jones, Indeed, he did say that. Who was talking, him or the drugs and alcohol.
Comment by TabulaRasa — May 29, 2007 @ 3:11 pm
Christian is dead. I agree with Rain. Well put.
Comment by Aion — May 29, 2007 @ 3:16 pm
How can anyone despise the alternate time line theory, much less disregard it? One of the biggest clues we’ve been given, and without ambiguity in my opinion, is that time/space travel is possible in the LOST universe. If I’m wrong, then why devote one whole episode to the concept and touch on it in every episode since. Considering all the easter eggs that reference time/space, we should be glad we have something to go on. The Kate and Jack scene sealed the deal. They got off the Island, and now are in the process of setting things right. The flashbacks are flashbacks. The flashforwards are actually flashbacks, too.
Comment by Higdon — May 29, 2007 @ 4:12 pm
Wayward Mike.
Learn to read idiot.
Comment by lol@wayward — May 29, 2007 @ 4:15 pm
what if what we saw wasn’t a flash forward, but was a flashback and they were trying to get back on the island a second time… meaning that when they crashed on the island in sept 2004 it was the second time kate and jack were on the island. Wouldn’t that be something?
Comment by Andrew — May 29, 2007 @ 4:24 pm
Just so I don’t leave anyone hanging who hasn’t read my theory on that before…The flashforwards, in my opinion, happened before what’s currently going on on the Island.
Desmond showed us that time/space travel is possible. I believe Desmond either died, or was transported by the will of the Island when he turned the failsafe key. I say died, because Cooper said he was in an accident and the next thing he remembered was that he was on the Island. I also believe that the failsafe in the Swan was designed to implode, which hints at Desmond’s demise. So it’s possible, upon death or by whim, the Island can do with you what it wants. We’ve been told by Ms. Hawkings that the universe course corrects, and we find out that Desmond bears the ultimate responsibility of turning that key. So we’ve got two examples of people who have come and gone from the Island by more mysterious ways than a submarine.
So we cut to the flashforward where Kate and Jack are off of the island. Kate’s moderately happy, Jacks’ pretty much a beaten man. He want’s to go back to the Island, and has acted without regard to his own life or safety. He wants that plane to crash, and he’s stepped up on the bridge to jump. I think our friend Jack either by death, or by whim of the Island was teleported back to the Island to make things right.
One more thing. Remember the pilot episode? Jack woke up in the middle of bamboo not knowing where he was. And Kate came strolling out of the jungle as well. The Island brought them back to the Island at the very moment the plane crashed the first time.
Comment by Higdon — May 29, 2007 @ 4:25 pm
So I get that some of you don’t want to accept that they might be in an alternate timeline, etc… (which the post gives equal, yet less detailed, time) But what about the second half. Who do you suppose ‘he’ is. I doubt they were vague on purpose. They know they wouldn’t get away with making us wait to find out that ‘he’ is Sawyer.
Comment by DocArzt — May 29, 2007 @ 4:30 pm
To the person who said Jack was just wandering around and not a current doctor, he had the key to the drug closet and the nurse there was not at all surprised by his presence.
And Carlton and Damon never said that Christian was dead, just that he was not alive on the island. Which could be trickery since they also said time moves differently off the island. When they first said that everybody thought that it moved at a different speed. But since that has been debunked, they can only mean that outside of the island’s forcefield, there is a different time line than the one the survivors entered.
Comment by CurmudgeonUK — May 29, 2007 @ 4:35 pm
What if in the alternate timeline everybody who is alive from the crash is dead on the island, and everybody who is dead who is alive? So Kate wants to stay because she is free and not a fugitive becose of Desmond tampering with the space time continuum, but Jack knows that by staying there when the field on the island closes all the people will be dead.
Comment by JimmyV — May 29, 2007 @ 4:39 pm
As with Locke’s father… Jack’s father is somewhere on the island, as we have seen on season 1… when they came back home some other people, Jack’s father (generated by the island) included, came with them….
Comment by mvl — May 29, 2007 @ 4:40 pm
Does anyone remember the A-Team? BA Baracus used to hate to fly, so Hanibal would always sneak him “Sleeping Powders” so he wouldn’t freak out. After awhile he caught on, and in one memorable episode Hannibal tries to give him a hamburger, he then tries to outthink himself. This would be the equivalent of the writers and producers picking Sawyer as “he”. And here is the visual evidence…
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kY44AgrZaGM
Comment by Higdon — May 29, 2007 @ 4:43 pm
Does anyone remember the A-Team? BA Baracus used to hate to fly, so Hanibal would always sneak him “Sleeping Powders” so he wouldn’t freak out. After awhile he caught on, and in one memorable episode Hannibal tries to give him a hamburger with “the sleeping powders in it”, he then tries to outthink himself. This would be the equivalent of the writers and producers picking Sawyer as “he”. And here is the visual evidence…
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kY44AgrZaGM
Comment by Higdon — May 29, 2007 @ 4:44 pm
HAha! THe sleeping powderz was in teh milk! Ive seen that one
Comment by LOL@u — May 29, 2007 @ 4:52 pm
20 dollars says thet Jack was lying in the pharmacy, and drugged/stressd out of his mind in the hospital when he told that doctor to call his dad.
Comment by jimmy Zer0 — May 29, 2007 @ 5:00 pm
if the flash forward was on a different timeline how come Jack was using his unlimited flights on oceanic airlines?
Comment by Daniel — May 29, 2007 @ 5:38 pm
i really don’t think this is alternate time line stuff why would they have golden tickets if they never got rescued,and whos in the coffin that they both happened to know about, i think kate was talking about her child she’s gonna have
Comment by nick — May 29, 2007 @ 5:43 pm
Daniel, it doesn’t mean the crash never happened, it just means the circumstances were different.
Comment by DocArzt — May 29, 2007 @ 6:00 pm
CurmudgeonUK, it appeared to me that someone, the nurse, was enabling his addiction. She was right there and could have given him the key.
The point I am trying to make is there a reason behind the condition he is in, and there are enablers to his condition.
A drunken madman is harder to believe than reasoned, lucid one.
Comment by TabulaRasa — May 29, 2007 @ 6:08 pm
Rather than an alternate time line, perhaps the “rescuees” go back in time (like Desmond did) and get a chance to create a different future.
Comment by ceebs — May 29, 2007 @ 6:23 pm
I doubt sheperd is alive, the only person we heard made reference to him was jack who seemed a bit mental at the time,i think this was just thrown in to make us think and had no relevance to it,the other case is he obviously is still alive in which case you’d have to think he’s heavily tied in with the island business in some way probably works in conjunction with one of the hanso branches,personally i think he’s dead the pharmacist hardly believed what he was saying,the twist to this is we were all supposed to think it was christain in the coffin right til the end making us all think its just another insignificant flashback about jacks daddy troubles, as it turns out it wasn’t and thats why they used his dad in the story line as they did to keep us guessing whether he was alive or not while never seing the ending coming!
Comment by nickk — May 29, 2007 @ 6:24 pm
I hope your right about the timeline thing because wouldn’t it be totally awesome if Charlie appeared in one of the flashforwards and im also interested in season four because every episode has the possiblity of showing us another lostie who made it off the island. Still sad that Charlie had to die but still hoping theres some timeline possiblities to bring him back.
Comment by DMS — May 29, 2007 @ 6:35 pm
If everyone thinks that it is an alternate timeline then it is not. The big questions on Lost are never answered by us as fans. Only the writers know what the answer is and if we think it is an alternate timeline than it isn’t.
Comment by lost815 — May 29, 2007 @ 6:45 pm
I’ll reiterate an old theory about getting off the island. If the island is in a bubble that is sheltered from changes in the timeline?
What if the island gave you a chance to work out you issues? Confronting your failures on the island would allow you change your life in the past off the island.
What would happen if changes were made so that a person, let’s say Charlie, never got on the plane?
The island would have to “course correct” by killing that person on the island to resume his/her life in the real world.
Then, leaving the island unnaturally would cause a paradox in reality off the island. This paradox would have severe consequences affecting everyone that got off the island. Maybe a “Jacob’s Ladder” effect, as in the movie.
Comment by TabulaRasa — May 29, 2007 @ 6:55 pm
As much as I love the idea of Christian Sheppard being alive, he is 100 percent DEAD. This was confirmed when a fan asked Damon Lindeloff and Carlton Cuse if there was a chance he lived, given Jack “seeing” him on the island. They both laughed and confirmed saying he was deffinetly dead. Guess Jack stole his pad.
Comment by Jason — May 29, 2007 @ 7:30 pm
“what if what we saw wasn’t a flash forward, but was a flashback and they were trying to get back on the island a second time… meaning that when they crashed on the island in sept 2004 it was the second time kate and jack were on the island. Wouldn’t that be something?”
Posted By Andrew
For some reason this makes absolute sense to me.
I began watching the 1st season (again) about 3 weeks ago. And in the very 1st episode I picked up on some weird connection between Jack & Kate. It’s almost like they knew each other.
And a little bit with Sawyer too.
Just thought it was odd.
After reading what you said it reminded me of that.
Comment by Lizzie — May 29, 2007 @ 8:09 pm
Don’t be so quick to discredit Doc about this. From the episode itself we do not have enough evidence to prove this either way. I went back and checked the podcast to be sure as I too remember them saying yes he is dead. But I was surprised when I read their whole comment. They were completely playing with us the viewers by what they said which still leaves it completely ambiguous. No matter what they do about the Christian Story line they could say they he WAS dead in that timeline or some other reasoning based on some other pseudo science and no one could say they lied when they said he was dead.
It kind of like; Yesssss he dead…NOT!
Here it is judge for yourselves;
Official Lost Podcast/April 20, 2007
Q. Is Christian Shephard dead?
A. Yes.
Damon, however, adds a disclaimer: namely, that Carlton “may be using the word ‘dead’ in a sense we [the audience] don’t fully understand yet.” Probably just a joke, but may indicate a not so black-and-white status as to Christian.
Add to the fact that we don’t really know what happened to him in Sydney as we did not see it on screen. Isn’t it a little odd that such an important character’s dead goes unrecorded. I would say it is a mystery as to what happened to him and in fact weather he shows up or not in the future.
Comment by H20 — May 29, 2007 @ 8:16 pm
Actually TabulaRose that makes alot of sense. I love that theory. Charlie worked through his drug issues, Boone resolved his “sisterly love” issues and Shannon started to trust men again by falling in love with Sayid. Ana Lucia dealt with revenge issues (the man she shot in cold blood before) and it was resolved when she couldn’t shoot Ben. Libby — not sure about her though.
Still I really like this theory.
Wonder what happened to Walt and Michael because they left island and didn’t die — at least not that we know of…yet
Comment by Donna — May 29, 2007 @ 8:35 pm
Yeah Tab, not to steal your thunder but I actually posted a similar theory a while back about the island being a privileged frame and that the living could not occupy both time frames, so anyone who is dead in one time frame would be alive in another.
Comment by DocArzt — May 29, 2007 @ 8:42 pm
I was wondering why that sounded familiar. My Brilliance is often borrowed.
Comment by TabulaRasa — May 29, 2007 @ 8:52 pm
Just had a thought, is there such thing in the ‘justice/law’ books similar to the Double Jeopardy law? I mean, is Kate no longer a fugitive as she was already pronounced dead? (Flight 815 already being ‘found)?
Comment by Joyce — May 29, 2007 @ 9:08 pm
I think the theory that TabulaRasa mentions is a good one and it would be interesting pursuing that angle.
Also the theroy that Lizzie mentions above; about it being their second time around(at least for some)that we have come to believe as their first time on the island.
I think both these theories are LOSTlike they would provide a big enough plot twist to give you a serious migraine. They also both would provide a deeper meaning to the previous seasons of LOST episodes.
When the series was over and we watched them again through new understanding we would see the layers of the onion unfold that we did not see when it was first experienced. That would be a GREAT story. I think it is what they aspire to do and probably are capable of doing as writers. It would make LOST even more unique and amazing than just another TV series that follows a complicated plot line intermingled with easter eggs, character development and peudo science.
Some of the episodes and characters responses that people find really lame then might all make sense. Like why Jack (although the supposed hero) is such a whinney cry baby who always makes bad decisions and who ends up a druggie and an alcoholic who lies. If he were under other pressures that we do not understand (not his first time to the island or that the flashforward is really a flashback)then his behavior would be in harmony with that reality. In retrosepct we will understand and see that those responses were not just bad acting or writing or fillers but actually there for a reason.
One more thought in “Through The Looking Glass” when Jack tells Kate that he loves her I found it kind of surreal. Like he did not say it any different than you would tell your sister that you love her. And Kate’s response to it seems odd too! Did anyone else notice that?
Comment by H20 — May 29, 2007 @ 9:31 pm
lol Tab, I’m quite sure I was not the first. Just saying I agree and actually made that same case myself once. Now that I re-read my comment, its a bit snarky. Sorry. Internet does not translate sarcastic agreement very well.
Comment by DocArzt — May 29, 2007 @ 10:10 pm
apologies for my far fetched theory, i think my brain is missing the lectures and now i’ve made it my life mission to solve the lost timeline..
first
Im going to watch the flashes before ur eyes episode again… and if you are serious about the timeline theory so should u!
Ive been thinking, about desmond living the same thing “twice”, maybe when desmond turned the key, and messed with the button. The island (that particular space) travelled back (or stood still?) in time??
i dont know but there IS deffinetly a time line that has loops and bends along the story..
second
Perhaps the flashes of the future that desmond sees are not flashes of the future but those of a past that already occured, memories…
Hence you cant go back in the island once you leave,
hence locke can walk (in theory hes not been thrown off the window jet)
hence christian is alive,
therefore desmonds future(past!) visions make sense (hes living this story for the second time over),
and if that is true the island babies would then be doomed if concieved on island but not if “off” island.
…..or something like that…
If thats correct tho, it means occeanic will be crashing again on island.
Comment by OxfordAngel — May 30, 2007 @ 4:28 am
Wasn’t it confirmed by Cuse that Christian is definitely dead? http://www.spoilerfix.com/lost.php 4/23 per the official podcast.
Comment by MagnoliaSouth — May 30, 2007 @ 5:11 am
I think everybody is going a little too deeply in on this. Wouldn’t it make sense that Christian is alive, but they just chose not to show the actor who plays him?
JACK: “I’ll tell you what, you go up to his office and if I’m drunker than he is etc. etc.
Obviously they made an effort to show everybody that Kate and Jack both appear younger in the flash forward. Jack has no gray in his beard or his hair, but everytime they go back to him on the island his hair and stubble are full of it. Don’t forget the “Moses” crack on the island. In his mental state in the “flash forward” I don’t think he is concerned about using his Just For Men hair dye. Kate appears all dewey and glowey, freckles are downplayed. If she were older she would have more freckles due to sun exposure. Just my 2 cents worth…Namaste (>..>)
Comment by UnderAlienControl — May 30, 2007 @ 6:31 am
Kate’s car was a new looking Saturn…you could see the logo on it..(>.>)
Comment by UnderAlienControl — May 30, 2007 @ 6:34 am
Kate went back to the timeline before she blew up the house, and she didn’t. That allowed her to be with the love of her life. That’s why she doesn’t care about whoever’s funeral that was. That’s why she doesn’t want to go back to the island. Her deal is done.
Jack went back to the time his wife left him. He chose not to go to the AA meeting his dad was in. His dad didn’t die overseas. Jack’s decision altered everyone
Comment by Jack — May 30, 2007 @ 7:16 am
One thing I haven’t heard anyone propose was what if what we perceive to be ‘present Island time’ is actually all in the past, and we are just watching past events unfold. For example, what if everything happening on the Island was actually past events, and the flash-forward was actually the present as it was actually occuring? Although that doesn’t take into account any of the dates we’ve been given…
Comment by Absence — May 30, 2007 @ 7:22 am
Alien and Cap10:
I believe she was driving a Volvo…look at the logo on the grill.
Comment by gusteaux — May 30, 2007 @ 7:26 am
The alternative time line seems posible, since i remember j.j. did the same in Felicity.
Comment by Paola — May 30, 2007 @ 7:42 am
OH MY GOD IF YOU WATCH THE EPISODE OF FLASHES BEFORE HIS EYES WHERE DESMOND EXPLAINS HIS OWN TIME TRAVEL,
AS HE RETURNS TO HIS LIFE WITH PENNY HES FALLEN DOWN OF A LADDER AND THE BUCKET OF PAINT READS “FUTURE”
its on, come on relativity theorists wanted!!!!!
Comment by OxfordAngel — May 30, 2007 @ 7:51 am
I think you’re looking too deep into things. The show has made procedural mistakes before, so I wouldn’t be surprised if the writers had no idea how this scenario would work in real life.
Jack’s dad is dead…all this talk of altered realities and timelines are something I’d expect from Star Trek, not LOST. If he was actually alive, then Jack’s purpose for being on the orginal flight that crashed would not exist, so a paradox would have been created. I don’t think TPTB plan on messing with that powder keg.
Comment by Mike — May 30, 2007 @ 8:07 am
I think Higdon, Andrew, and Lizzie are onto something , and I’d like to add some
pieces that seem relevant, but not much discussed.
Without claiming that this theory can explain everything, the basic idea is that the
Finale was BOTH a flashforward and a flashback. That is, it depicted events that
occurred AFTER the Losties *first* crash on the island, but BEFORE the on-island
events shown in the finale.
Again, without saying that there is conclusive evidence for this, consider these
points:
*I’d noticed a few episodes back that Jack had put on a bit of weight.
*His beard is also graying.
At first I thought these were just the changes that the actor that plays Jack was
naturally going through. But of course, this is Lost, and these changes obviously
mean something.
Now, in the finale, we see two features of Jack’s body in the flashforward that are
salient: his beard is pitch-black, and he’s got quite a tummy (it’s hard to go to
the gym hopped up on oxycodone!). This suggested–again, it’s just a
suggestion–that the Jack depicted on-island in the finale is OLDER than the Jack
depicted in the flashforward, but also a bit slimmer.
I realize that all the unknown issues with aging (compare Richard) and time-travel
(compare Desmond) may explain these things. But if we wish to have a roughly linear
timeline–something I have not tried to work out–the best explanation is that Jack
has left the island a number of times (maybe just once or twice) before, and has
somehow found a way to return.
Recall that when Jack visited Kate in the Others’ billiard room he told her he’d
come back for her. It’s possible that he did manage to get off the island (perhaps
Locke’s exploding the submarine didn’t happen until the next time Jack and Kate were
held by the others), did manage to get back, did manage to get Kate off too. This
would be roughly when the events in the flashforward occur–when Kate and Jack are
off the island, but not everyone.
Finally, note that on-island Jack keeps saying to Ben in the finale, “I’m getting my
people off the island—ALL OF THEM.” The would fit well with Jack’s frustration
that in the past, he’s been able to get him off, Kate off (and maybe some others),
but not all of them. Also, Ben asks him, “Why are you so eager to get off this
island? So you can go back to the hospital, so you can go back to saving people?”
This is said with a hint of irony, indicating that Ben knows that Jack’s recurring
need to save people–whether in the hospital or by repeatedly returning to the
island to get his people off–will never be satisfied.
The theme of this theory–reminiscent from the myth of Sisyphus–dovetails with
Desmond’s worries that he’s somehow expected to save Charlie’s life over and over
again. Perhaps it’s not Des who’s expected to push the boulder up the hill forever,
but rather Jack. If any of this is on the right track, I’d wager that at some point
Jack manages to break the loop. Perhaps the final on-island scenes from this past
finale really are the final events for the Losties on the island—maybe this is the
end of Jack’s mission.
Or maybe it’s not. Who knows. But that’s my two sense. Thanks for the site, the
discussion, and the great interruption from our own realworld lives.
Comment by LM2 — May 30, 2007 @ 8:09 am
Apologies for the crazy formatting. I composed the comment off-line, and didn’t preview before posting. Apologies.
Comment by LM2 — May 30, 2007 @ 8:10 am
If the flash forward of Jack and Kate is not simply a Desmond flash that doesn’t come true because they don’t actually get on the helicopter - I don’t think I will watch Lost anymore. It seems highly unlikely that Kate and Jack would leave the island - and be ok with it for even a small amount of time - with others still behind. I have loved lost, but I really did not like the finale of this season.
Comment by miffed — May 30, 2007 @ 8:33 am
Are you fu
Comment by Indignant — May 30, 2007 @ 8:57 am
C’mon. Kate not being in jail is a good reason for an alternate time line theory?
Are you seriously telling me… it is MORE likely that these people fell into, escaped into… an ALTERNATE TIME LINE than Kate being paroled, released, pardoned… for her crimes?
I guess in that other time line, OJ gets convicted
Comment by Joe Cobb — May 30, 2007 @ 8:59 am
What if Christian never died?
The “Others” arranged a car crash to get Locke’s dad on the island. Supports the theory that the Losties were brought to the island on purpose.
Comment by luvs2curl — May 30, 2007 @ 9:01 am
The going in time, and change,etc , theories are simply not true i think.I hope anyway.I presume that only Desmond was given the abilitie to see some future events.
Jack is imaginating his dad is still alive
(something like Hurley and Dave).My thought leans in this direction: Jack has lost it and sees appearances of his drunk dead dad.
He’s probabelly on the edge of being fired from his job as a surgeon, he’s a drunk and he’s always traveling the world by plane in the hope he’ll crach again on the island, he’s obsessed with that.
At this point, the most important question to me is WHY the hell does he want to go BACK. (not HOW did they get off it)
Based on his room full of maps, compasses, oceanic tickets,…, his reason for still being alive is trying to find the goddammned island.
I presume that not everyone made it off the island , and that Jack promised them with his life, he would get them off, get help .Now, after some time/years , he is still not able to forget and still not able to locate the island and come back for the rescue he promissed.
Mostlikely some higher force (hanso/dharma/…) made them not telling anything about where they have been, in order to stay alive.
Jack is fed up with that: ‘im sick of lying, we need to go back’ he says’
Oceanic gave him (anyone else?) a golden ticket , to compensate the crash:free airtravelling for life.And that’s what he does: traveling from city to city by plane, around the world, hoping he’ll crash someday again on the island.
From now on, the island scenes will be flashbacks and the thing going on off the island is happening NOW, our time.
Who’s dead and lays in the coffin?
someone who:*made it of the island
*Kate doesn’t like for some reason
*no one would miss
*also can’t live with the lie jack is talking about (probabely a suicide)
*is living in a black neighbourhood
*….
I guess it’s Michael who made it off the island and can’t forget what he has done: killing and leaving everyone behind, beeing selfish.
He couldn’t live with hemself anymore (changed his name)and took his own life.
My guess is that the show will be like this:
through flashbacks about what’s happening on the island we’ll see how Jack ,Kate , anyone else,… were able to leave the island.
As the show continues in present time ( off island, jack tryiAll this going in time theories and alternate timeline ng to get back, becoming a weirdo, etc)we will find out that jack will find a way back and fulfill his unfinished business.
(getting some losties back, or whatever he wants to go back for.)
grtz
Comment by Belgian observer — May 30, 2007 @ 9:16 am
The lack of gray hair in jack’s sideburns is a dead giveaway that it’s an alternate timeline.
Comment by boonesghost — May 30, 2007 @ 9:20 am
As we know the directors/producers of Lost don
Comment by Steve22186 — May 30, 2007 @ 10:22 am
Cap10, good point. So, our timeline, where oceanic is bankrupt, is the final resolution to Jack’s mission?
Comment by TabulaRasa — May 30, 2007 @ 11:15 am
Cap10:
You just verbalized exactly the theory I’ve been trying to wrap my brain around: “…the island is the nexus between all universes/timelines.” Props to Merlboroman as well (if he said that earlier, I had forgotten). That is exactly the conclusion I’ve been coming to. One of the things I am looking for in past podcasts is the statement made in one of them a month or so ago about the island having many more “rooms” than we were aware of. When that statement was originally made, we all jumped back on the underground civilization bandwagon…the opening of the “gates of hell” concept if you will. Then I thought maybe the underground Looking Glass hatch/station was one of the additional “rooms” they were referring to. But Darlton always speak metaphorically. Now I’m leaning toward the “rooms” being all the alternate timelines that are accessable from the island.
Comment by gusteaux — May 30, 2007 @ 1:36 pm
Of course I meant underWATER Looking Glass hatch/station.
Comment by gusteaux — May 30, 2007 @ 2:00 pm
test
Comment by Higdon — May 30, 2007 @ 2:46 pm
Cap10:
Yes, the plane was Oceanic. But Jack also said that he had been using the Golden Ticket they gave him. They being Oceanic. Further proof could be seen in the first scene with Jack on the plane. An Oceanic sign was on the back wall of the cabin.
I don’t think Oceanic’s demise was discussed anywhere other than the Oceanic website. Aren’t you the guy who chastised me for referencing TLE because it wasn’t canon and therefore my theory about Mittelwerk and Mittelos being connected was crap?
Comment by Higdon — May 30, 2007 @ 2:50 pm
As far as the Time Loop theory goes, Desmond never encountered a duplicate of himself when he is transported. I submit the Island has the power to simply superimpose the individual onto him/herself. I’m nowhere near as smart as I pretend to be, but I’m sure Quantum mechanics deals with the ability of two identical atoms to exist in different parts of space which allows the theoretical possibility of teleportation. Check this out…According to Michael Crichton’s book Timeline, the forward states that in 1998 quantum teleportation was demonstrated in three labs around the world, Innsbruk, Rome, and Cal Tech. Physicist Jeff Kimble, leader of the Cal Tech team, said that quantum teleportation could be applied to solid objects: “The quantum state of one entity could be transported to another entity…We think we know how to do that.”. Maggie Fox, “Spooky Teleportation Study Brings Future Closer,: Reuters, 22 Oct. 1998. For Jeffrey R. Kimble, see A. Furusawa, et al., “Unconditional Quantum Teleportation,”Science 282 (23 Oct. 1998): 706-709
Holy Shit! What’s superimpose?
Comment by Higdon — May 30, 2007 @ 3:05 pm
Deadly jungle juice? Sounds like you’ve had a few yourself.
Comment by Higdon — May 30, 2007 @ 3:23 pm
You dont think I’d reference fiction to make a point do you? That is part of the preface. He sets you up with a general understanding of Quantum Mechanics and some of its specific properties. Those are genuine citations. What I didn’t add was that Kimble states they might be able to do this with bacterium. But this certainly gets the producers off the hook with a scientific explanation. It could one day happen. Like Robocop, when they said “We can rebuild him, we have the technology”. Well back then they didn’t have the technology, but now we do.
Comment by Higdon — May 30, 2007 @ 5:37 pm
Capt10 and Higdon:
I’m completely there with you both. And I too believe that we have to accept TLE as canon. Therefore, Oceanic Airlines, in the timeline that WE live in, went belly up after the 815 disaster. That means that the Jack and Kate in the last scene of the finale are not the Jack and Kate who should be in OUR world in May of 2007, because in the timeline we were shown, Oceanic was alive and well.
WE read the press release on the Oceanic Airlines website. In OUR world, in Our time.
That’s a true shout out to us, another great mixing of media and, I believe, absolute confirmation that the events we saw in the finale flashforwards will never come to be. That also means that in the timeline we saw as flashforwards, Christian Shephard, like Oceanic Airlines, could also be alive and well. In fact, Oceanic being alive is probably a clue that Christian is alive.
And, “who is in the coffin” is moot because it isn’t in the correct timeline that we will see at the end of the novel, therefore, it will never happen.
But there is a downside to buying into that theory.
If, as is apparently being “leaked” out, we are going to see flashforwards next season for “a number” of characters…and, if we are going to be shown the post-island stories of those characters in the timeline of Wack Jack and Pale Kate…how much will we be able to invest in storylines we expect to eventually become an erased slate? (credit to Tabula for the phrase, but it worked here).
But I do have confidence in the LOST creative team that they have a masterful plan that will continue to amaze, confuse and thoroughly entertain us for 48 more episodes.
Comment by gusteaux — May 30, 2007 @ 7:57 pm
Ummmm….check out the Oceanic Airlines website. http://www.oceanic-air.com. Anything look weird to you?
Comment by Higdon — May 30, 2007 @ 8:58 pm
Higdon, Lizzie, Andrew and LM2 are definitely onto something. I’m definitely in the alternate timeline camp. I don’t understand why people are so resistant to this theory. The show has been telegraphing the concept of alternate space and time to us from the beginning.
Also, I rewatched the pilot over the weekend and I think it’s strange the way Jack goes running onto the beach almost immediately. My sense is that it’s not the first time he’s been through this experience (a la Groundhog Day). And yes, the bond b/w Kate and Jack in the first episode seems a little intense for two people who supposedly just met each other.
Comment by Jewlo — May 30, 2007 @ 9:07 pm
Don’t waste your time, guys. It’s gonna take a 5-page essay detailing how Jack’s dad is dead to shut these juvenile theories up. Just when you think it’s the dumb kid in the forums going, “hey u think jacks dads still alive, cuz he said ‘ask my dad’!!!,” along comes PROOF. Doesn’t the organic nature of the answers we’ve been given so far trump the chance of these stupid far-out sci-fi explanations? I guess not. I guess Occam’s Razor has no bearing for most fans.
I can imagine the headlines: “ALTERNATE-REALITY VERSIONS OF OCEANIC 815 CRASH VICTIMS SURVIVE IN OUR REALITY,” and, “OCEANIC OFFERS GOLDEN TICKETS TO SURVIVORS FROM ALTERNATE-REALITY, NO QUESTIONS ASKED,” and, “SURVIVORS COME FROM ALTERNATE REALITY WHERE HUMANS HAVE 5 TOES, JOHN RITTER DEAD.”
Come on, get real!
Comment by Indian Food — May 31, 2007 @ 5:32 am
“Rite Aid Confirms Christian Shephard Alive” - sounds like Lost speculation from a British Tabloid. It’s the equivalent of me saying, “I asked my uncle if other dimensions exist and he said yes! So that’s gotta be it!”
Comment by Indian Food — May 31, 2007 @ 5:35 am
From the Oceanic Website:
“Important Announcement ALL FLIGHTS CANCELLED
We regret to announce that Oceanic Airlines has ceased all operations effective immediately.
Michael Orteig, President of Oceanic Airlines, released this statement: “After 25 years of service, we are forced to close our doors. Due to financial difficulties in the wake of the Flight 815 tragedy, we are no longer able to sustain service. We are deeply sorry that we can no longer serve our loyal customers, and apologize for any inconvenience our decision will cause.”
Passengers of Oceanic Airlines are encouraged to contact their travel agent or one of Oceanic’s airline partners to make alternate travel arrangements.”
Obviously, there is more to the “flashforward”?
Comment by luvs2curl — May 31, 2007 @ 5:47 am
NO! In THEIR reality they NEVER CLOSED THEIR DOORS! The website is from OUR REALITY, in which there WERE NO SURVIVIORS FROM 815!!! I FIGURED IT OUT FROM READIN TEH COMIC BOOKS!!!
Comment by Indian Food — May 31, 2007 @ 5:52 am
I’m re-watching the final episode.
In the flash forward where Jack’s in the hospital room looking over that lady’s chart, the new chief of surgery comes in and introduces himself to Jack. When he finds out who Jack is, he says “Dr. Jack Shepard, the hero… twice over”.
I’m sure someone may have commented on this, but we know he’s a hero for saving the lady and her son from the car. But, for what else? Saving the people on the island? Hmm.
Then Dr. Hammil (new chief) said “After last night, I’m surprised you’d even want to come in”.
So does that mean that Jack is still a practicing doctor, and not just wandering around aimlessly at the hospital?
Blah.
Comment by Lizzie — May 31, 2007 @ 10:09 am
Just dawned on me that he’s a hero twice over for saving 2 people from the car… duh. Sorry.
Comment by Lizzie — May 31, 2007 @ 10:26 am
Dr. Hammilsaidthat he was surprised to see him come in to check on the woman, to check on how the woman was doing, NOT TO OPERATE ON ANYONE.
Obviously, a drunken, drug addict, disheveled, unshaven, shaky, unbalanced man, with no money to buy a decent vehicle, cannot be a practicing doctor.
Sometimes it is frustrating when the obvious is ignored in exchange for fantastical theories.
it is obvious that after Jack got off island he has become dysfunctional, but of course, because he had such an illustrious great past as a great doctor, he would be known around the hospital and respected as much as possible.
Jack is driven to drunken madness in his regrets for his actions, which will unfold in coming seasons, and also in his desire to GET BACK to the island, and also to his LONELINESS, because noone believes him.
Comment by HawaiiHeaven — May 31, 2007 @ 11:50 am
Indian Food gives me diarrhea.
Comment by Higdon — May 31, 2007 @ 1:04 pm
One comment about Occam’s Razor as it pertains to the Lost finale. Lost is intentionally ambiguous, and very rarely do they fail to deliver a nice little surprise (most of the hatches, the dharma film, etc.)when they do this. In the finale, we were left with three ambiguous questions. 1.) Who was in the casket? 2) Who is “He” Kate refers to? 3) Is Jack’s Dad really dead?
If we apply Occam’s Razor to each of these three questions we are left with the answers 1)J ntham or Latham, either and assumed name or a character we haven’t met yet. 2) Sawyer, because of the romantic interest on the Island (yes, even with the little spat they had on the way out) 3.) Yes, and Jack is crazy.
If someone can come up with simpler Occam’s Razor results than this, please add to the discussion.
All things considered, are these the revelations that the producers are going to levy on us when the series returns? The first answer, I would say absolutely. I believe that at least 2 new major characters will be introduced to us next year. This J ntham and Jacob. The producers said Jacob hasn’t been cast yet, so who we saw in that flash isn’t necessarily who Jacob will be. The other two answers I’m not so sure. I think both of them will be weak outs. The writing was absolutely fantastic this past year, and I refuse to believe that this same group would trot out those 2 answers after we have our Lost Hiatus Baby.
As twisted as the plots get on this show, and with the unexplained phenomena that occurs on the Island; Occam’s Razor doesn’t have a place in the Lost universe. And it rarely does in any sci-fi, fantasy type shows. If it did, why bother suspending your disbelief? If the authors have the imagination to create this universe, I’m willing to give the benefit of the doubt the rest of the way.
My prediction: You will be blown away by the revelation of Jack’s father. You will be blown away by who “He” is. And you will be blown away by my chisled, striking good looks. Ok, maybe not the last one. But you get my drift.
Comment by Higdon — May 31, 2007 @ 1:26 pm
We know that this flash forward takes place in 2007. The cell phone and date on the newspaper confirm this. Thats a full 3 years after they get off the Island.
Did we see them get off the island?!?! Darn, I missed that part!
The easy answer, he’s famous.
Then why did the guy behind him at the pharmacy recognize him as the guy from the bridge and not the long-lost, presumed-dead survivor of Flight 815? I think if the crash and survivors had been made public, he would have been recognized as such. (IMHO)
Of course, Kate, an adult woman, would NOT have to get back to a STEP FATHER.
The man Kate killed was her FATHER. Kate discovered the truth that Wayne was her true father when she discovered a wartime photograph of Sam dated four months before she was born. Maybe she hated him, but maybe she always regretted killing him because of what it did to her life. And she loses her mother over it as well, when she thought she was trying to help her.
My prediction: You will be blown away by the revelation of Jack’s father. You will be blown away by who “He” is.
I absolutely agree with you on this one. The “crazy talk” theory just doesn’t seem fitting to the writer’s style for me. (IMHO) And they dropped that “HE” on us with the intention of making it a big deal. I’d be disappointed if it was an easy answer - like Sawyer.
Sometimes it is frustrating when the obvious is ignored in exchange for fantastical theories.
Yes, but sometimes fantastical theories are more fun! Lighten up!
Comment by 7ate9 — May 31, 2007 @ 5:22 pm
HawaiiHeaven,
I am the authorities. And you are a little know it all. People constantly put facts up and you disregard them, because you know everything, yet you prove nothing. You really don’t even read anything, you just start thinking what your response is going to be. Where are the stats that Millions of people in this country are prescribed Oxycontin, a Schedule II drug? Do you know that most pharmacies in the south don’t carry Oxy, because the amount of theft? Most addicts DO NOT legally obtain Oxy. How do you know Lindsay Lohan was legally prescribed Oxycontin? Was she legally prescribed Schedule II drug Cocaine, as well? You seem to know it all.
Yes, doctors can prescribe Oxycontin legally to those that need it. But it certainly isn’t EASY. You say so yourself above, when you claim that they decline your husbands other therapies. I do find your claim that your husband can tell when a patient is an addict and it’s his job to be very silly. I also find it amazing that he’s got all these patients knocking down his door for Oxy. In my experience, reputable doctors dont get involved in this, it’s the pain clinics in low income areas or flat out criminals with their PHd. Any doctor could lose their DEA registration if they are found to be acting unethically and/or illegally. You claim that people can demand it and if they don’t get it from your husband they go someplace else. Well, look at that link I provided for you. It should tell you everything. By the way, what do you do all day while your husband is illegally prescribing pain killers? Just because your husband is a doctor, and he’s told you a story or two doesn’t make you an expert on anything. Show me some FACTS, don’t just start typing. Better yet, get the hubby on here. I’d rather be set straight by the “expert” than the “experts” “wife”.
Comment by Higdon — June 1, 2007 @ 12:33 pm
Doc,
I’m stubborn, thats why. Plus, this is what the producers left us with. 3 ambiguous questions. And if you really think about it, surviving a plane crash isn’t that impressive. From 1983 to 2000, the National Transportation Safety Board investigated 26 major commercial accidents involving 2,739 people. A total of 1,525 survived, or 56%. And we all know it was the Island’s bidding to get the plane there. She knew what she was doing.
Comment by Higdon — June 1, 2007 @ 2:10 pm
Higdon, you are real a nutcase. The fact that many many people are prescribed oxycontin in this country has really gotten you in a tizzy. You need tranquilizers. Maybe you’re taking too much viagra and you need to calm down.
Comment by HawaiiHeaven — June 1, 2007 @ 3:49 pm
Did no one notice that it was JULIET’S SISTER and HER SON who Jack gave help to on the bridge?
and the boy is not 3years anymore, he’s growing up.
This indicates that the story is just going on, now that a few losties managed to make it off the island. No different timeline,other dimension , etc!!!
We are just a few years later after leaving the island.
And his dad is dead: Jack is just losing reality being drunk and high on medication al the time.
Comment by Belgian observer — June 3, 2007 @ 11:59 am
Hawaii Heaven,
Great comeback. And way to further back up your point. You just got OWNED! and that was the best you could come up with? How are you so familiar with the effects of viagra? Unable to get the ol’ hubby hard these days? And the tranquilizers, I can get them from him right? He’s just handing that stuff out.
Comment by Higdon — June 3, 2007 @ 1:56 pm
Higdon, most of those didn’t leave the ground.
Peeps, I must call ceasefire on the flame war or this thread will be closed. I enjoy the postings of everyone involved otherwise, but it is getting out of hand now with the insults.
Comment by DocArzt — June 3, 2007 @ 2:20 pm
Higdon, That’s right, ALL Doctors just “hand out” meds, ALL prescriptions for painkillers are illegal, ALL doctors just hand them out, because ALL doctors want to risk their 12 years of schooling and licenses to help out lowlife, idiotic, moronic, braindead addicts.
It’s a shame your grades were so bad that you never go into to med school, or any grad school for that matter.
When you get Cancer, a chronic disease, or get in a bad car accident, we’ll see your ass begging for some meds.
Comment by HawaiiHeaven — June 3, 2007 @ 8:59 pm