LOST - Who Can Ya Trust?
Okay, so Juliet muttering ‘I hate you’ after shutting off her recorder was a clear indication that she is NOT bad to the bone. UNLESS (engaging crackpot cortex) there is a meta-fictional aspect to the story and she knows WE are watching and wants to fool us! (disengage crackpot.)
I want to know if you folks think that Juliet is a prisoner of some circumstance Ben has control over, or if she is just in a position she doesn’t like and is taking it out on Ben. What I think, is that she has been on the island long enough that she can’t leave either because it has physically affected her, or because she wants to be there and just feels conflicted about.
Why? Because there are bitter truths coming regarding Dharma, Jacob, Flight 815, etc., and she is privy to all of it. So to simply judge it by what we know up to know would be foolish. Yes it could be as simple as Ben/Jacob have the ability to do harm to people Juliet cares for, but this does not jive with Ben’s proclamation that his people MUST have the illusion of freedom. It would only take one person walking amongst them without freedom for that illusion to disappear, and ‘Downtown’ is a pretty small town indeed.
So, I’ve come up with a little exercise. There has to be somebody amongst the ‘bad guys’ that we can trust, who do you think it is? Take a look at the candidates and make your vote.
The Parachutist |
Ben |
Juliet |
Mikhail |
Locke |
| Why shouldn’t we trust her? She knows Desmond, she speaks Portuguese. Maybe the fact that she told Mikhail she wasn’t alone should be a concern. Friend or foe? You decide. | Ok, we have known this guy for a while and it seems all he ever does is lie. Was he lying when he said "We’re the good guys," or is he just doing what he needs to do to protect his people from ‘Jacob’? | She hates Ben, but seems to trust Jacob enough, so since we don’t know Jacob’s agenda yet, should we be judging her? She seems ‘good’, but maybe she’s just after Ben’s job? | We know ‘Mikhail’ is a quiet guy that was working on his memoirs when Locke, Kate, and Sayid crashed his party. The only person he ever aimed to kill was an other! Dangerous other, or cranky recluse? | Has Locke’s quest for answers driven him over the edge? It certainly seems like he has willingly become ‘one of them’, but is he past the point of no return? Has Locke drank Ben’s koolaid? |
There is your evidence, who do you trust the most? Do you trust any of them? Don’t forget to justify your position!
Tom
Comment by Ben — April 26, 2007 @ 10:48 am
John Locke as IMHO he is the man that fore fronts us viewers as all as he wants is answers about what the island is etc etc like us the viewers do
Comment by steve — April 26, 2007 @ 10:51 am
Woah a lot of people trust Locke! I voted for him too. I want to trust Naomi because she obviously is not with the Others and she probably has more answers that she’s willing to share.
Comment by Charlie Lesoine — April 26, 2007 @ 11:00 am
Locke can’t be trusted. He’ll do anything to stay on his island.
Whether she’s a prisoner or not and if she hates ben aside, Juliet is a wild card. Ben has her on a very short chain. She’s very sneaky and it’s always unclear whose side she’s on. She’s the must untrustworthy of the entire bunch because she’s so damn good at telling lies!
Mikhail and Ben are in the same catagory: it’s pretty much assumed that whatever they say is a lie. They’re not wild cards like Locke and Juliet becuase we already know they’re full of it. However, Mikhail doesn’t have some master plan like Ben does. Mikhail just wants to be left alone. He hasn’t tried to hurt anybody unless he was provoked unlike Ben who loves playing puppet master
The parachutist may have some faulty information but she seems to be there to help Desmond. She’s more than likely working with Penny to find him. She’s the must trusworthy of the entire bunch…at least so far
Comment by Matt — April 26, 2007 @ 11:03 am
I agree with ben, I trust Tom. I am not sure why he wasn’t included in your list. After Tom, I’d trust Mikhail and then the Parachusist. I would never trust Ben or Locke. Trusting Locke gets you dead or captured.
I don’t really trust Penny at this point either. If she shows up, I think that spells trouble.
Comment by BlackrockBob — April 26, 2007 @ 11:07 am
surly we cant trust the Parachusist aka naomia because we no Oceana Flight 815 did crash and there were suvivors so what she has told us is already a lie.
Comment by steve — April 26, 2007 @ 11:11 am
I think you can trust Locke to take care of the island. I think you can trust Ben to take care of himself.
Comment by thefallguy1 — April 26, 2007 @ 11:12 am
Bah! I knew everyone was going to vote for Locke. Ever since season one when he asked Walt if he wanted to know a secret (creeeepy!) I haven’t trusted him.
Comment by TrillianM — April 26, 2007 @ 11:17 am
Trust Ben… to always tell you a lie. You can trust that everything he does and says is a lie. Whether or not he is good person, protecting his people (I don’t buy that for a moment). You can trust that whatever he says will be untrue.
Ben is the enemy you know. The rest are listed in the order of trust.
If Locke belongs on this list, then so does Jack. You can somewhat trust Locke. But he is operating from his own unkonwn agenda. Is he working for the greater good?
Mikhail, at least he only kills others. (That fight scene with was worth it, bring me more of Jin kicking the crap outta others)
Juliet is untrustworthy because when the chips are down, she will side with whoever has the power. Plus, the very fact that she hasn’t broken away to prevent these experiments shows her lack of character. She is condoning by her involvement human experiments that so far is 100% fatal.
Not enough is known about Naomi, so you can’t trust her.
Comment by TabulaRasa — April 26, 2007 @ 11:37 am
I think Tom, Mikhail, and Juliet can be somewhat trusted. It seems that those three aren’t bad to the core like Ben, Picket, Pryce, and Colleen.
Tom was friendly to Jack even after he held Ben as a hostage, Mikhail seems like he wants off the island now as well. He saw the flare and I bet he was expecting something totally different when he got there. To add to that, he took the Satellite phone, I bet he wants off the island now. Juliet seems to be stuck between a rock and a hard place so I bet she is only cooperating with the Others now so that she can find a way off the island. I bet she will betray Ben in the end however.
Comment by Muscle_Bob_Buff_Pants — April 26, 2007 @ 11:39 am
In the end, I think Julliet will snap/crack and do the right thing and go against the Others and Ben. She’s only doing what she’s doing for Ben to get free of this place. She is so desperate to go home and see her sister, she’ll do anything. Desperate people do desperate things. I wouldn’t be surprised to see her kill Ben by season’s end? She is a good person driven to get off this island. She will be a hero soon. Wait for it.
Comment by MikerMan — April 26, 2007 @ 11:40 am
It’s interesting that you have Locke included with these faces, hmmm *stroking beard*. I believe that Juliet and Jack have a plan to eventually go against Ben. We are not in on it just as the rest of the 815ers aren’t. Otherwise, Jack’s a “bad twin…”
Comment by cap10tripps — April 26, 2007 @ 11:47 am
Tom
Comment by Tom — April 26, 2007 @ 11:49 am
Another possibility would be the introduction of the third more ruthless group (DHARMA?) would force Ben’s others and the 815ers to work together…
Comment by cap10tripps — April 26, 2007 @ 11:49 am
Locke is the only enigma in the group that is MESSING up all the smooth fun in Otherworld.
Of the other suspects (less the parachutist-though she spoke the glossalalia for a reason.)
Hes the only one whos acting with heart- the rest seem to have motives
Comment by JiMiny criCket — April 26, 2007 @ 11:50 am
I voted Locke, because I’m inclined to side with the island (for now)…
Comment by cap10tripps — April 26, 2007 @ 11:51 am
lmaoo… when i read this, the 1st Other i thought of was TOM! lol… but he’s not on “the list” so of course ill go with my boy Locke… I don’t really care if he’s good…bad.. doesnt matter, he’s on a quest for answers and i’ve got my hiking boots on ready to follow him.
Comment by Jimyy — April 26, 2007 @ 11:56 am
Juliet is not bad to the bone.
She is the islands true pragmatic. Her loyalties are for sale. And all you have to do to get this free agent on you team is prove you have the best chance of getting her off the island.
Her Name sake and Her have much in common. Look at Juliet from Romeo and Juliet. “She is considered by many the true hero of the play, acting as a sounding board and a balance against impulsive Romeo, and taking control of situations with an ease. She sets the boundaries of behavior in her relationship with Romeo. She allows him to kiss her, she pledges her commitment before he, she suggests their marriage, she accepts Romeo even after he kills her cousin, she bravely takes a drug that simulates her death, and she does all this while fending off her parents’ plans for her wedding, lying when necessary. Juliet believes she is doing the right thing all along. Finally, when she is left with no one and Romeo is dead before her, she ends her life, and in a violent manner at that.”
Juliet is alone and unlike her literary equal she isn’t doing all this for a man but rather for herself (or maybe for her baby).
Juliet is not to be trusted because as the legendary Juliet she believes the ends justify the means.
Comment by BOB BOB — April 26, 2007 @ 12:02 pm
I voted for Ben. Ben has only lied in few instances.
a- to save his life from the Losties
b- to gain trust/respect of someone or
c- to keep the island’s inhabitants on the island.
Most people would lie to save their life, if they knew their capturers would kill them if they found out who they really were. - Like Ben said to Sawyer “The only way to get a con-man’s repspect is to con him.” - And finally, if the island was a great utopian place of redemption like some believe, including me, don’t you think everyone would want to stay there. I think if they were to ever leave the island, many of them left their past lives in ruins, so why would they desire to go back to the outside world with the pain and misery they had before. - I think the Losties want to leave the island, but don’t know how much they’ll miss it if they do, so Ben, in a sense, is the ‘keeper’ of the island.
Just my thoughts.
Comment by Saligia — April 26, 2007 @ 12:09 pm
okay….
Naomi: besides the fact that she MIGHT of been sent by Penny, we know nothing about her. considering all the rest of the candidates, I think that puts her as most trustworthy for now…as strange as THAT might sound.
Ben: he’s been lying since day 1. nuff said.
Juliette: considering that I’m not even sure who’s side she’s on anymore, how can I possibly trust her?
Mikhail: meh. he’s a hermit who’s now without a home, thank you locke. considering that he’d shoot you (no matter who you were) if you didn’t tell him you were coming, I think he’s just protecting himself and wants to be on his own. doesn’t mean he can’t be trusted though….he does work with ben after all, and did lie about being in dharma.
Locke: considering the fact that he’s blown up any possible way (that we know of) of communicating with the outside world, and that ben is once again spinning his web of manipulation around him with the whole “dads on the island!” thing, I’m not sure if our favorite “man of faith” is acting on behalf of everyone or of himself. with that, I’m weary of trusting him….
Comment by blacknexus — April 26, 2007 @ 12:11 pm
Tom
Comment by Kris — April 26, 2007 @ 12:12 pm
Trust to always tell the truth? None of them, but Locke comes the closest. He’s pretty no-nonsense, as long as you don’t cross his agenda.
Trust with my life? Juliet. She’s a liar, but she’s never done anybody any real harm (except under duress). I think she’s really there for the research, but if the truth only muddies the waters, she’ll hide it. But she’s a good person underneath it all.
Comment by AC — April 26, 2007 @ 12:15 pm
In general, I left Tom off because he’s too nice.
Comment by docarzt — April 26, 2007 @ 12:19 pm
I am a huge fan of the show and this site. I think you guys come up with brilliant ideas all the time and I usually just watch and read, but did anyone think that perhaps Juliet was talking to Kate when she said - I hate you.? Just a thought.
Comment by Dave — April 26, 2007 @ 12:28 pm
Tom?! The stealer of small boys?? I wouldn’t trust him to make me a sandwich, even if it wasn’t toasted…
I trust Vincent. His instincts seem right: Unbury the undead, find a car, bark at polar bears….He seems the most logical selection, given the fact that this show is all happening in his mind
Comment by El Prez — April 26, 2007 @ 12:32 pm
lmaoo prezz.. cmon, how do u not trust Tom? the man cant even throw a football properly. lol
Comment by Jimyy — April 26, 2007 @ 12:34 pm
Of all of my favorite non conspiracies(who’s the gay character? how does the van start? why does the French lady speak with a Serbian accent?) Tom not being able to throw a football is my favorite!
LOL!
Comment by El Prez — April 26, 2007 @ 12:39 pm
You mean Friendly?
Comment by That Old Goat — April 26, 2007 @ 12:40 pm
AC -
Oh my goodness… Never does any harm… the very fact that she continues to participate in her research is condoning murder. They are intentionally getting people like Kate pregnant knowing that it will cause her death. Yeah, she is in a tough spot, but she continues to do harm by participating in this research.
Comment by TabulaRasa — April 26, 2007 @ 12:42 pm
Perhaps I’m stating the obvious here. I’m guessing Juliet is in some kind of Catch-22 situation…so whatever it is she’s doing, she believes it’s the “lesser of two evils” or the “better of two goods”…. In fact, is there anyone on this island who’s not in a Catch-22?
Comment by LizardofAhs — April 26, 2007 @ 12:48 pm
Holy cow, BOB BOB….it hadn’t occurred to me that Juliet might be pregnant too and wanting off of the island to save her life and the life of her baby. We already know she had an affair with Goodwin. Maybe she is pregnant. If she is, would she have been able to keep this fact from Ben? Not likely, I’m thinking…
Comment by Brady — April 26, 2007 @ 12:58 pm
Thats exactly why you DON’T trust him, Jimyy.
Comment by Baker — April 26, 2007 @ 1:05 pm
Juliet - My S.O. hates Juliet and says she needs to get kicked in the teeth or at least Sun ought to have locked her int he hatch! I don’t feel that way about her. I think she is a victim, like all the other LOSTIES, however has her own MO…to get the frak off that island. And every action she takes is a step closer to that, in her mind. She is not to be trusted but her aliances can change depending on who has the upper hand and right now that would be the others. Though I can see her turn against them easily.
Ben - One of the Leaders and a LIAR. He is the Jim Jones of that island. No one leaves. I think he was in love with Juliet is one of the reasons she is not allowed to leave and one of the reasons he sent Goodwin off. Not to be trusted in the least. Not even if he promises you that you can leave the island.
Mikhail - Like Patti Labelle, he is on his own. I think he is from the old Dharma folks who created a truce with the others (they leave him a lone he gets them info they need). He didn’t go with the Others with they left Othersville, so he is fending for himself. I do belive he found them by the flare Hurley shot. Though he was surprised at who he saw, which is why he ran. He will help people out, but only for his own gain. He is on his own and act on his own…not very trust worthy.
Naomi - Lied about 815 being found and everyone dead. That’s my guess. One of them. Not to be trusted.
Locke - Acts on his own interests but is good at heart. Can’t be trusted not to touch things due to his curious nature, but he can be trusted to watch your back.
Comment by RazzleDazzle — April 26, 2007 @ 1:06 pm
ummmm steve it would apear that the parachutist was just in the real world so perhaps she is not lying..maybe ben pulled some strings and had some kind of cover up done for oceanic flight 815
Comment by matt — April 26, 2007 @ 1:16 pm
I want to add that for all the people that think Kate is pregnant now should take a long hard look at Rose. You know as soon as Bernard hit the beach, her underroos hit the sand. Those 2 newlyweds probably kept the whole camp awake that night!
Seriously, with pregnancy being a death sentence, don’t you think they would have requested some condoms in the pallet drop as well? If Sawyer can find a pregnancy test, I’m sure he can find some condoms and keep at least 2 on his person at all times. One for Ana Lucia and one for his cage match with Kate. Saywer’s been burned before, if you catch my drift….
Comment by El Prez — April 26, 2007 @ 1:18 pm
It would have to be Tom, I wouldnt trust anyone on your list they are all too shady.
Comment by Sheepboy — April 26, 2007 @ 1:22 pm
what do you think that the Parachutist said when she was speaking the other language after Mikhail pulled the branch out of her. He said she said “thank you, thank you for helping me” but that doesn’t seem to ligit?
Comment by keely — April 26, 2007 @ 1:33 pm
Oddly enough, I think Juliet is probably 1 or 2 of the bunch. Mainly because we know nothing about the parachute girl. So actually, I guess parachutist is on the top of the list. I’m going to rank them in order of “liarness.”
5. Ben: He’s dangerous because he has too much information. That and his penchant for needing people to “want” to stuff. Anyone who’s pathologically passive-agressive screams “hidden agenda.”
4. Mikhail: He’s already demonstrated that he’s good at lying and apparently very good at faking his own death. If Sayid had a few minutes alone with him in a room, I’m sure he’d break eventually though.
3. Locke: Let’s face it, completely out of his gord. You can’t trust someone who is that prone to mood swings. The guy goes from “mystic shaman” to “inept child” in about 5 seconds.
2. Juliet: She’s lying to the Losties because she knows that Ben has the ability to get her off this Island. As mentinoned previously, that could all change, if she learns the Losties have a sat phone. She’s a good liar and she’s pretty cold for keeping these crash victims in the dark but I don’t think she has much of choice. At least we know she wants off the island.
1. The Parachutist: She’s speaks in multiple languages, she can fly a chopper and apparently “isn’t alone.” Who knows what it means, but until she says more I wouldn’t trust her much.
Comment by sandleford — April 26, 2007 @ 1:34 pm
Ben has lied at every turn. He lied about Rachel’s cancer coming back, He lied about curing Rachel, He lied about letting Juliet off the island, He lied about being Henry Gale, He lied about the video feed being live that he showed to Juliet, He lied to Locke about punching the buttons. So far, the thing we can trust about Ben is that he lies.
Comment by TabulaRasa — April 26, 2007 @ 1:35 pm
I think, with regards to Juliet, that it may be as simple as she just wants to get off the island and get back to her family. For the last three years, Ben has represented the only way in which she can get off that island. Maybe now, after all that has happened between her and Ben, she is struggling with the reality that Ben probably will never let her off the island (or at least until a woman on island gets pregnant and delivers, which she may have concluded will never happen).
Parallel to that, she may be thinking that she has a better chance (however miniscule) of getting off the island by aligning with the 815ers (in particular Jack). She may know that this could be possible if the 815ers win/defeat the Others in whatever showdown is sure to happen at some point.
Comment by mbtoole — April 26, 2007 @ 1:36 pm
Keely,
According to one website translation, the parachutist said “I’m not alone,” and not “Thank you,” as Mikhail suggested.
Comment by sandleford — April 26, 2007 @ 1:36 pm
Doc,
1. The new reply to this comment feature is way cool.
2. How about doing a pole of the losties we do not trust?
Comment by TabulaRasa — April 26, 2007 @ 1:47 pm
hmm..
I think we all know that juliet is being the bitch to try and get herself off the island but, if she knows the sub is blown up she must know that there is another way of getting off or else she wouldn’t be wasting her time
Naomi is to shady to begin with, if no one can find them then i doubt a helicopter is going to fall out of the sky? So there’s deff. some fishy with her!
Locke still has daddy issues and i’m pretty sure he can’t be trusted until ben and copper are dealt with !
Ben is just a chronic liar but there obivously has to be something that he needs or else he wouldnt be wasting his time!
Bottom line u cant trust any of them
Comment by Dontdiecharlie — April 26, 2007 @ 1:51 pm
and by pole i mean poll. and by losties i mean: jack, sawyer, kate, desmond, hurley, sayid, etc. One of these will certainly turn on the losties. One of these knows more than what they letting on. my vote, hurley.
Comment by TabulaRasa — April 26, 2007 @ 1:54 pm
I don’t want to throw the cat among the pigeons, but didn’t Damon say in a recent podcast that he couldn’t think of a single lie that Ben had told, (except, of course, for the Henry Gale business in season two)?
I know a lot of people think that he lied to Juliet about her sister’s cancer and so on, but has he said anything that we KNOW to be an absolute, indisputable whopper? I’m not talking about gnomic statements that conceal the literal truth, or intentional ambiguity, or tactical equivocation, or anything like that: I’m talking only about direct lies. Has Ben ever told a direct lie?
I might be completely wrong here. I’ve probably only seen each season three episode twice, if that, so I’m sure I’m not as familiar with them as you some of you out there.
Comment by Jem — April 26, 2007 @ 1:59 pm
Hmm, I don’t know about the others but I definitely wouldn’t put Juliet up there as someone I’d trust. I mean, granted she wants off the island but that only makes her another Michael; concerned only with getting herself rescued, maybe even willing to condemn the losties to death if it means her getting off safely. I think Jack was far to quick to accept her as one of them on these grounds.
Comment by Ariana — April 26, 2007 @ 2:03 pm
Here is one man you can trust:
Comment by docarzt — April 26, 2007 @ 2:05 pm
Actually, Cuselof were questioning some of the things Ben has stated, like being born on the island.
As for a direct lie, besides saying he is Henry Gale, if you take the time zone difference into account, the live shot of Rachel’s sister and nephew would have been at night.
Comment by TabulaRasa — April 26, 2007 @ 2:12 pm
Nice
Comment by TabulaRasa — April 26, 2007 @ 2:13 pm
TabulaRasa,
As I said in my post, I’m talking only about statements we KNOW to be direct lies.
I realise that D and C questioned what Ben said about being born on the island, but what they are suggesting is that that statement might not be *literally* true, not that it might be a direct lie. That’s a very important distinction. I think it’s safe to say that Ben’s statement about having been born on the island will turn out to be true *in some sense*. It is not a direct lie, (or, at least, I will be very surprised if it turns out to be).
The other stuff you mention is just speculation on your part. I reiterate: I’m only talking about statements we KNOW to be DIRECT lies.
Comment by Jem — April 26, 2007 @ 2:26 pm
interesting, thank you!
Comment by keely — April 26, 2007 @ 2:30 pm
What do you call telling Sawyer that he has a pace-maker that will kill him if his heart rate gets above a certain level?
Comment by TabulaRasa — April 26, 2007 @ 2:32 pm
TabulaRasa,
Sorry, it was unfair to say that your timezone point was just speculation. It’s a fair point, although I suspect the daylight is nothing more than an oversight in the production. I don’t think it’s enough on its own to lead us to the conclusion is Ben is a liar.
Comment by Jem — April 26, 2007 @ 2:32 pm
About what the Parachutist said in the last scene of D.O.C; how they found the plane and there were no surivors. I know how a lot of people thought that the others made another plane or something on that range, but do you think perhaps this is some sort of afterlife? Maybe that would be why the woman can not have babies, because it’d be new life onto this place?
Comment by Wendy — April 26, 2007 @ 2:34 pm
TabulaRasa,
Re. Sawyer’s pacemaker.
There you have me! Touche, my friend, touche!
I’d forgotten about that. Still, thought the point was worth exploring.
Comment by Jem — April 26, 2007 @ 2:34 pm
We are not certain of what kind of time (if any) exists on this island, but I can tell you with certainty that it is nothing like we are used to.
Wendy, I’ve been kicking around the idea that DHARMA is trying to play god for awhile now (ties into the Valenzetti equation and the thirst for ultimate power and the ability to manipulate everything), so your point would certainly fit well here. Maybe it’s a man made afterlife…
Comment by cap10tripps — April 26, 2007 @ 2:46 pm
This is a great topic. I think who you can trust depends on your personal agenda, and how theirs fits. I don’t think we, the viewers, can trust anything that is said on the show by any character!
From Jack’s perspective, the only one on that list who shares his agenda of getting off the island is Juliet, and I believe they’re working together and she’s fooling Ben. However, I think Jack can only trust her as long as he’s her best chance of getting off the island. I think she’s a good person stuck in a terrible situation, driven by desperation to do whatever’s necessary to get free.
I think Locke is a good person, but a loose cannon. He’s not looking out for the best interests of the Oceanic 815 survivors; he’s doing what’s best for John Locke, and that doesn’t include anyone getting off the island. Jack can’t trust Locke.
Ben can’t be trusted to tell the truth to anyone, not even his own people. The papers he showed Juliet to ‘prove’ that her sister’s cancer had returned were labeled as belonging to a man; he lied to manipulate her into agreeing to stay ‘willingly’ on the island. (His use of the term ‘cancer’ and lack of surprise when she told him he had a tumor suggests the papers might have been his own.)
Mikhail can’t be trusted by Jack because he has no interest in helping the Oceanic 815 people off the island. I’m not sure Ben can really trust him either, given his shoot-first-ask-later policy. With friends like that…
The parachutist, Naomi, is an Other; why else did she tell Mikhail she wasn’t alone, in Portuguese, instead of saying it in English? She didn’t come to rescue the Losties, so they/Jack can’t trust her. Whether Ben can or not, I guess time will tell.
Comment by Tara — April 26, 2007 @ 2:50 pm
Does anyone find that it’s weird that the parachutist spoke like in five different languages? spanish? chinese, jin says. italian, says mikhail, then portugese, then english?!
Comment by Wendy — April 26, 2007 @ 3:02 pm
Like someone said before, Wendy: it’s reminiscent of Danielle speaking the many languages when questioning Sayid back in season 1.
By the way, the new LOST moment is up for this week. When talking to Sawyer, the “him” Locke says he kidnapped is in reference to Ben. Now discuss Locke and his trustworthiness.
Comment by El Prez — April 26, 2007 @ 3:12 pm
Short answer: Tom.
Long answer: It continues to surprise me how much the fan community continues to talk about the others as the “bad” guys. I am not saying that i would trust ben or juliet with anything they say to get someone to do something but rather that the losties are just as “bad” as the others. In DOC even, Desmond says “by my count, you’ve killed more of them than they of you” or something similar. Sawyer is a murderer. Kate is a murderer. cuse suggests that Jin is a murderer. Sayid tortured and destroyed many a life. Michael was willing to kill anyone he needed to in order to get walt back. We have not seen an other do anything “bad” in the outside world. and the losties have killed numerous others without any real knowledge of what they were doing. What about Goodwin? He killed Nathan. Yes, to cover his own tracks, but also because Ana Lucia would have tortured him. Also, apparently Mikhael did a little research because Goodwin said (nathan) “was not a good person.” So apparently it all comes down to intention. we let kate slide because she’s pretty and killed her “father” for her mother’s sake. we let sawyer slide because we like the bad boy and he was trying to kill the man that ruined his life and killed his parents (through manipulation). We let Sayid slide because he just wanted to find Nadya. We know now that sun took money from her father making Jin even more of a henchman (that kills etc…). She kills Colleen without even a second thought. Charlie kills ethan in the coldest blood possible. Not to excuse ethan, but do we know for certain that ethan hung charlie to die, or hung charlie at all? or if he killed Scot (steve?)? and why. It all comes down to intention and where this is all leading us. Yes, Tom did take walt but what was walt doing with the others? it didn’t have anything to do with pregnant women. everyone has their own reasons for doing bad things. Ben does seem to be talented at lying and manipulation, but does that make him bad? what is the end goal? is it a utilitarianism, to a certain degree? desmond was on the island to save the whole world. Are the others as well? and what would anyone be willing to do to save millions? Since none of us know the end goals or the true motivations of any of the cast members, we should remember that there are 2 more seasons. If its as simple as losties defeating others then getting off the island then i doubt there would be that many episodes left. We don’t know what side ANYONE is on. Remember that. but back to my short answer: Tom.
Comment by hurleybird — April 26, 2007 @ 3:19 pm
I don’t trust any of the Others, including Tom. Trust is a funny term though, because I wouldn’t blindly trust anyone on the island, even the survivors. As far as trust goes though, I’d trust the survivors.
That said, I don’t believe Juliet is fully an Other. She may be working for them, and she may have lived with them and know some of their secrets, but I’ll bet she doesn’t know them all nor fully what they’re capable of. I think Juliet is a lot more like Desmond and the 815′ers than we think — more of a pawn. Ultimately, I trust her as much I’d trust the survivors (which may not be all that much still… ;)).
I trust the Parachutist because I believe she’s working for Penny. I think Penny’s awesome — hell, anyone who can find this ‘island’ has to be pretty cool, right? I also don’t think she’d send someone who couldn’t get the job done. As for the 815 flight, that was SOME info she gave us. Personally, I think this ‘company’ is more loaded than we know — loaded enough to simulate the 815 crash off-island and make it look like no one survived… the perfect test subjects that no one will ever come looking for eh? And such good timing too, since they were running out of Others for experiments… but I digress.
Lastly, I still trust Locke, and certainly more than Jack at the moment. Like Sun noted, Jack’s not Jack lately. I think Locke is trying to figure out where this game with the Others is going, figure out the island and it’s own mysticism, and ultimately I think he’s looking for a ‘win’ for his ’side’. I trust Smokey’s senses, and Locke came face to face with it without it beating him down (a couple times), that’s good enough for me.
I trust the island overall, and Ben got cancer on an island that cures it for a reason. Unfortunately a spinal surgeon also landed on the island for a reason
(The Others have more power than we know imo).
Comment by Azure — April 26, 2007 @ 3:28 pm
It’s not about sides, it’s about trust. And if you want to trust a kidnapper and a person who has no problem blowing up a raft where some folks are just trying to get ahead, then by all means, go for it.
All I ask from you, hurleybird, is some damn INDENTION! That was the longest paragraph ever, man!!! LOL!
Your point is made…all the survivors are suspect but Sun was actually scared of being captured and God knows what. She really didn’t want to shoot Colleen.
Comment by El Prez — April 26, 2007 @ 3:30 pm
i know. sorry about the long paragraph.
just as many words though when it’s broken up… and i think i was writing a little faster than thinking. however, the episode that sun shot colleen, was the back story showing that sun would be willing to do anything to protect herself. Even murder/self defense… i don’t think colleen had a gun on her did she?
I forgot to justify Tom though.
Has he lied? I don’t believe so. I think the question above refers to actually trusting what they say. not their actions. maybe i’m wrong.
it’s true, it isn’t about sides. it’s about trust. so the easiest answer is NO ONE.
And as a television show that floats around so much mystery and misdirection, we shouldn’t trust anyone. because anyone who’s been set up to be someone to trust has to have secrets as well. and the more you trust someone the more surprise when they betray (mike/juliet’s last ep/charlie fake kidnap of sun).
So i guess i meant that Tom is the other that i like. but obviously i shouldn’t trust him or he’ll blow up my house. so back to who in the show is actually trustworthy? anyone? do we know everything about anyone? i guess we can trust the dead ones. and i vote rousseau least trustworthy.
Comment by hurleybird — April 26, 2007 @ 3:55 pm
Mikhail wasn’t working on a memoir.
Comment by D — April 26, 2007 @ 4:11 pm
What was he working on mysterious D?
Comment by docarzt — April 26, 2007 @ 4:19 pm
i chose Locke. He has questioning methods but they never turn out bad for his friends on the island… or he never intends it to be that way.
this is a bit off topic though but do any of you know when they are announcing LOST season 3 on DVD? ABC announced season 2 around this time last year so i figured it would really soon. My prediction is it will come out on Sept. 4th. I also wonder what the box cover will look like considering none of the promo posters of this season were group shots except for the gallery of shiny eyes one. any feedback to this would be grat.
cant wait till next wednesday!
Comment by Nick — April 26, 2007 @ 4:28 pm
It is implied that the manuscript was written by someone else– probably the previous inhabitant of the station. You’d figure if he’s leaving notes on the thing that read “My name is also Andre,” then the text proper probably is not his. The inclusion of this script was probably to alert clever viewers that the man is not who he makes himself to be.
I was just reading comments about Ben being born on the Island. I don’t remember Ben ever saying he was born on the Island. Didn’t he say “I’ve lived here my whole life,” — an expression that is commonly, although not literally, used like hyperbole to just make the point of duration or continuity?
Comment by D — April 26, 2007 @ 4:29 pm
D,
Ben was talking to Locke, and said something like this,
I was born on this island, it’s something most of the people here can’t say
Comment by Keely — April 26, 2007 @ 5:16 pm
Wow, Doc, you’re really over-analyzing Juliet. Her agenda is extremely transparent at this point. She demanded off the island, Ben said “No, not until you finish your job.” So, she is trying to finish her work by using Sun/Kate to solve the baby mystery. It’s really that simple. She has no other agenda. She will lie cheat and steal to get the answers she seeks, but beyond that, she only wants off the island.
The “who can we trust” question is a trick. Who can we trust to do what? There are about 10 different conflicting agendas on the island. Trying to reduce these all to who is “good” or “bad” is only going to lead to more nonsensical theories, and I think we have enough already.
Comment by Joe — April 26, 2007 @ 5:36 pm
Maybe I’m over analyzing her. At this point she still has more knowledge than we do of who the others are. Just because she is conflicted doesn’t make her story an open and shut case, if anything it fuels my contention that what motivates her is not necessarily a known quantity. I expect a twist.
Comment by docarzt — April 26, 2007 @ 5:49 pm
Juliet, pregnant? Please. The writers have gone out of their way to spell out Juliet’s motives, and now we’re making up new ones for her? She wants off the island to be with her once-terminally-ill sister and newborn niece - if that isn’t enough urgency for you, I don’t know what is.
Juliet doesn’t seem to know much about the Island mysteries or the full scale of the Others’ operation. That was made clear when we saw that until the day of the crash, she didn’t even know the Others could communicate with the outside world. She knows something about their agenda, but is clearly still in the dark about a lot of things. Ben probably made up a BS story to tell her which was just enough to keep her on task, just as he is now doing with Locke.
Comment by Joe — April 26, 2007 @ 5:49 pm
Sorry for the barrage of comments, but this is an interesting thread
I think Mikhail can be trusted, and here is why. We learned, via Ms. Hawking in FBYE, that the electromagnetic thing in the hatch was indeed capable of causing armageddon if the button wasn’t pressed. We also know that Dharma once had its own staff there to monitor the button, but after some kind of conflict, Dharma was kicked out and the Others took over. We also have seen clues that Mikhail had ties to Radzinsky and Inman, the Dharma leftovers who were left precariously in charge of the button after the conflict.
Therefore, I am guessing that Mikhail is more loyal to the ex-Dharma crew than to the Others. I think we are going to learn soon that Mikhail has been manipulating the Others, and that his agenda is more like Widmore, Hawking, and Campbell - keeping the bad science on the island from ending the world.
Comment by Joe — April 26, 2007 @ 6:04 pm
Didn’t Charlie say in season one that Locke would be the guy who saved all of them? That’s good enough for me.
Comment by Merlboroman — April 26, 2007 @ 6:22 pm
Maybe I’m way off but I noticed this during last night’s episode.
At the very beginning Sun is digging in the garden, and it was obviously supposed to remind us of the time when she was digging in the garden and she was assaulted by an “Other” (Charlie). I feel like maybe the producers were trying to parallel that, telling us AGAIN that this person sneaking up on Sun in the garden isn’t who we think he is. Obviously this isn’t someone wearing a Jack mask, but maybe it’s a suggestion that Jack is no longer trustworthy, no longer the same person he was before his vacation in Othersville.
Comment by Robotevan — April 26, 2007 @ 6:31 pm
Juliet is the biggest liar of all.
Juliet lied when she told Sun that men’s sperm counts go way up on the island. Remember that juliet’s experiments are to get women pregnant when they are sterile. We do not know who impregnated those women, and we don’t know why those “pregnant” Other women died. We have only Juliet’s story that they died in childbirth- but i think it was way more sinister.
Juliet lied when she told Sun that she conceived on the island, and lied when she told the Others on the tape, that Sun concieved on the island- so that Ben and the Others will think that Sun will die.
Then all Juliet has to do is “save” Sun- of course Sun won’t die because she did not really conceive on the island. Then juliet will make everyone believe she “saved” Sun and her baby. During sun’s pregnancy she will have complete control over sun and Jin, and the unborn baby which she will inject with who-knows-what-evil drugs.
Comment by HawaiiHeaven — April 26, 2007 @ 6:35 pm
actually, the one thing about Ben is, you CAN trust him. you just have to make him give his word that he will do whatever. Ben is always a man of his word so to speak.
Comment by Tarrant — April 26, 2007 @ 7:04 pm
Right on Joe. Let’s not forget it was Mikhail who was in control of food drops, so he was literally feeding the beachies. Of course, scientists feed their lab rats too…
Comment by docarzt — April 26, 2007 @ 7:08 pm
Quite childishly…
I trust Juliet because she’s winsome and conflicted and seems to be the only “other” (other than Tom) with anything close to genuine, believable human emotions. Everyone is just plain psychotic.
Naomi’s just a bit too multilingual and conspiratorial with Mikhail.
I’d be bummed if Ben weren’t the villain.
I’m just so glad Mikhail is not dead; he’s too cool.
Comment by tomfishstory — April 26, 2007 @ 7:23 pm
Okay… I have to comment…
WHOM do you trust? Whom…
Comment by tomfishstory — April 26, 2007 @ 7:24 pm
hey, i’m not sure if this is a little off the topic…..i got lost half way down, i couldn’t read all the posts, anyhow, i was thinking, Let’s say the Parachutist was not sent by Penny, do you all think maybe it has something to do with Locke pressing the emergency button that caused the cabin to blow up?
Comment by LiLi — April 26, 2007 @ 7:41 pm
I don’t trust any of them for alot of the same reasons you all have posted already, but if i were to pick one that i’d trust the most, it would be Locke.
Comment by LiLi — April 26, 2007 @ 7:42 pm
1) Juliet is pregnant with goodwin’s child. That makes her ‘one of us’ as in the same as Sun and Kate.
2) Locke wants Sawyer to kill Cooper because he can’t do it himself. If he commits a ‘crime’ he’d lose ‘communion’ with the island.
Comment by Drakoi — April 26, 2007 @ 7:46 pm
Locke is the man. He has something cooking thats going to get him the answers he wants and help the losties get home. I hope he figures out the Island secrtets and how to use them to his advantage. He can help get them rescued but not necessarily leave the island himself. He could lead a faction on the island and be the next Ben/Jacob.
Juliet is BAADD. Even if she turns out to a great heroine, I still won’t like her.
Comment by jmaxx — April 26, 2007 @ 8:09 pm
Wanting someone dead is just as bad as killing them yourself. It’s called an “accomplice”.
Thou shalt not covet. Whether it’s thy neighbor’s wife or the death of someone you can’t deal with…
Of course it all comes back to free will and Sawyer will most likely choose vengeance. Like he said to Charlie at the end of the Long Con:
I’m not a good person, Charlie. I’ve never done a good thing my whole life.
Locke knows that and is manipulating Sawyer. It will soon come to pass that Locke is as evil as Ben.
Comment by El Prez — April 26, 2007 @ 8:19 pm
I voted for the parachutist. She has the picture of Des and Penny, which I think makes it reasonable to think she’s there on Pen’s behalf, looking for Des. “With enough money and determination, you can find anyone.” Because of that, I think she can be trusted. At least her motives are clear and decent, which can’t be said about any of our other options.
Patchy we just don’t know about. (Although really we don’t know much about the parachutist either. I’m assuming a lot with her.)
Juliet and Locke are in it for themselves. Locke, espcecially, has a track record of blatant disregard of those around him in order to accomplish his goal.
And Ben is Ben. What more need be said? Although, wouldn’t that be an ironic twist if Ben did end up being the most trustworthy because the reasons for his manipulation involve a greater good, and his manipulating, conniving shrewdness is the only way for that greater good to be achieved?
Comment by Jeff — April 26, 2007 @ 8:32 pm
The only people on the island that I trust are Hurley and Jin. Possibly Desmond. The rest of them are a pack of liars. I’d be more likely to take Ben at his word than some of the Losties.
Comment by Trent — April 26, 2007 @ 8:37 pm
I think Juliette is good and she is doing anything Ben asks her so she can get off the island. The reason for that is because SHE is pregnant (from Goodwin) and needs to get off the island so she doesn’t die
Comment by Re — April 26, 2007 @ 8:42 pm
I think the writers are trying to manipulate us this season to believe that Ben and the Others might be “the good guys” while the Losties are evil at their core.
I’ve noticed more and more viewers putting trust in Ben as the season goes on - Damon and Carlton must be snickering. Ben is not to be trusted - he has an agenda which I think will prove to be not so much evil but insane - some kind of utopian fantasy in which he is willing to let millions die in order to achieve his vision.
Comment by Bob — April 26, 2007 @ 8:43 pm
I agree with Jmaxx…F**K Juliet! While I was watching the episode with my roommate I said, “If Sun kicks her ass she’ll become my new favorite character, automatically.” Sure, she’s conflicted, but what she fails to see is that perhaps she’s working the wrong angle in trusting the devil (Ben) she knows as opposed to the ones (815ers) she doesn’t. The only reason I demand her immediate beheading is that she’s going to be the cause of Jack losing a lot of support and trust when the 815ers split in half (I’ve never liked Jack either, 100% pro-Sawyer/Locke). I can’t wait until Jack finds out that the sub would haven’t gotten them off the island regardless! Those to self-righteous/conflicted turds deserve one another. There!
Comment by Merlboroman — April 26, 2007 @ 8:58 pm
Even though Mikhail understood the parachutist how do we know that she was addressing him? It’s not a terrible stretch that Mikhail was investigating the flare and was unaware of who it would be. And she was babbling in multiple languages so it’s not outside of the realm of the possible that she thought Mikhail was with Desmond. Or not. Could be totally wrong yet again.
Comment by B — April 26, 2007 @ 9:31 pm
I think Locke getting Sawyer is more about testing Sawyer to see if he will be able to forgive Cooper and not kill him. One of the key themes in LOST is redemption. Sawyer is starting to come around and I think this is the ultimate test to see if he can be redeemed in the eyes of the island. Locke wants to see how the island will react to this to see if it is possible to “save” the other 815′rs who have sinned.
Perhaps this is also why there is confusion over whether the division in the finale is Locke/Jack or Sawyer/Jack. Locke and Sawyer develope a bond with each other (Sawyer being effectually Locke’s acolyte amongst the 815′rs), both being seen as “good” by the island, Locke because he has not sinned, and Sawyer because he has been redeemed by not killing Cooper. Together they form a faction against Jack and those who don’t want redemption.
Comment by Chad — April 26, 2007 @ 9:55 pm
Like Charlie said in the first season… “No offence, mate, but if there was one person I would put my absolute faith in to save us all, it would be John Locke”.
I guess he is right
Comment by Allan — April 26, 2007 @ 9:55 pm
Does anyone have a theory about why the woman from the jewelry shop was in the photo on the monks desk???
Comment by aw — April 26, 2007 @ 10:49 pm
Don’t you mean “Can anyone provide speculation about why the woman . . . .”
A theory would require thorough evidence– not the kind of flimsy hopes thrown foolishly into these sorts of conversations.
We haven’t been provided with information that can support or lead any estimates.
Comment by D — April 26, 2007 @ 11:37 pm
Ben. Why? He holds all the answers, Locke knows nothing and is out for himself. Juliet is conniving. The parachutist is unknown as is Michal. Since Ben knows everything and lies often, it would therefore be possible to counter-intuitively figure him out. Because you know he always lies, it means you can trust that what he tells you is false. That is not true of Juliet or Locke.
Comment by bjorn — April 27, 2007 @ 2:51 am
That’s not true D. Theories over plot devices only require a set of cause and effect that have the potential to be true. This is true from the primary through the secondary definitions.
Websters:
1. the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another.
2. abstract thought : SPECULATION.
…
6. an unproved assumption : CONJECTURE.
Comment by docarzt — April 27, 2007 @ 4:46 am
I think it’s safe to say that Juliet is NOT pregnant and therefor wanting to get off the island for that reason.
The woman knew for a FACT that pregnant women die on this island. Do you honestly think she would allow herself to get pregnant?!?
Juliet wants off the island, like everyone else, because she wants to get back to her life and her sister.
And I think it’s been proven that trust is something that’s not available on this island. Too many deceitful people.
Here’s the real poll:
Name one PERSON on the island, Other or Survivor, who hasn’t lied.
Comment by El Prez — April 27, 2007 @ 6:01 am
AW, I’d have to say my theory on the pic would be that they (Ms. Hawking and the monk, my next band name btw) are an ancient race of fate mongers who are native to the island. They have the same sort of “looping” ability that the island has granted Des. In using the pseudo religious themes I would say that they are metaphoric angels (or perhaps fallen angels)…
Comment by cap10tripps — April 27, 2007 @ 6:09 am
Yo El Prez, I’d have to say the person (which rules out Vincent) who hasn’t lied on the island is Jin. Although that’s probably due to his language barrier. I would say Hurley, but he recently told Sawyer that little white lie about the vote. As far as the one person I would trust overall, it would be Hurley…
Comment by cap10tripps — April 27, 2007 @ 6:16 am
Doc,
Did you notice in D.O.C. that look exchanged by Charlie and Patchy. Well, i was thinking it seemed very played up how much charlie wanted desmond to keep patchy, but desmond let patchy go, but right before patchy gave charlie a “im gonna kill you look”. Thus, i think patchy will kill charlie and the reason he was allowed to do so was because Desmond let him go, which is also a bit of a catch 22 situation. Also, in typical lost fashion, it would really have Desmond being partially responsible for charlie’s demise even though he believes he is the only one who can save him
Comment by k.b. — April 27, 2007 @ 6:37 am
Oh cap10, my cap10….Jin lied about his father being dead. He lied to Sun about what he did for a living, although, at some point, I think he knew that she knew…Hurley is the closest thing to trustworthy, mostly due to his inability to keep a secret…
And did you notice that this week, there was finally some acknowledgement that the Losties talk to each other behind the scenes? The fact that Hurley and Charlie knew who Patchy was, where he came from and how he died, tells me that Kate must have had a roundtable discussion with all the other Losties…so much for people not sharing on the island…
And as for your new band, sign me up!!
Comment by El Prez — April 27, 2007 @ 6:58 am
El Prez, good point about behind the scenes talk. I’ve had a few discussions with people on here about why don’t they talk about what the hell is going on. My response has always been, “They do, but we must assume they do this behind the scenes.” Kudos for bringing that up. I can’t believe I didn’t think of it.
On your previous point, if we’re talking about off the island too, then I’d have to say everyone lies (to some extent). Maybe Vincent really is the true hero of LOST…
Comment by cap10tripps — April 27, 2007 @ 7:20 am
Nah, dont think so. Locke doesnt care about getting off the island or helping people get off the island, its the furthest thing from his mind.
Comment by Jimyy — April 27, 2007 @ 7:25 am
“then I’d have to say everyone lies”
Caps ur starting to sound like House… another great show! lol… put House on the Island, God that would be great.
Comment by Jimyy — April 27, 2007 @ 7:52 am
Doc, trust for what?
I TRUST LOCKE completely to find out what is going on and getting to bottom of things.
I trust NO ONE to get anyone off the island…..
Comment by thirdflr — April 27, 2007 @ 8:43 am
You know what I trust?
I trust Cuse and Lidelof to leave us in suspense for 7 months until Season 4 comes back in January. They’ll make us wait, we’ll salivate with teaser clips in the fall. We’re part of the experiement!!
I also trust those spiders that killed Nikki and Paulo.
Comment by DrSheppard — April 27, 2007 @ 8:56 am
I think Ben can be trusted to an extent. He has said that if he breaks his word he will have problems with his people and has always kept his word, if not the spirit of his word he has held to the letter of it.
Mikhail has given out more info than anyone else, but we don’t know that it was true other than that he said it was true. He seems to be a quiet, peaceful guy and he also seems to want to “save the world” so I would think that he would do whatever he thought was right, not what he was told to do.
Juliet was my pick for the person to trust although she is the person we can trust the words that come out of her mouth the least. We have some idea as to her motivations, helping pregnant women and getting off the island. So I expect that she will turn out to be a hero to the Lostaways, which may or may not be a hero to the rest of the world.
Locke I trust the least. He is completely self-interested and seems to have no motivation other than staying on the island and taking care of himself. He has shown over and over that he is willing to sacrifice whatever gets in his way for his own misguided ideas.
The parachutist we know absolutely nothing about.
And Tom I trust as well. He is loyal to Ben but has been willing to bend the rules to help out Jack. He seems to have a clear idea of right and wrong and my guess is that his morality is stronger than his loyalty to Ben.
Comment by Eric — April 27, 2007 @ 9:03 am
yay! 108 comments!
*sorry*
Comment by radnac — April 27, 2007 @ 9:13 am
Doc, the use of theory in this context is a sort of vulgar or misunderstood application of the word that has become– it by all means betrays the empirical philosophy underlying science or investigation (which denies things such as the certainty of cause and effect). In science, conjecture as theory does not fly. That would be known as hypothesis.
But like I was saying, we have not been provided sufficient evidence to put reasonable faith into any claims, because we do not know the motivations of many new characters nor the nature of many of the mysteries.
Mikhail, Ben, the parachute girl, the old woman, etc. We really don’t know what drives them. More of the story needs to be revealed.
Comment by D — April 27, 2007 @ 9:30 am
Well said D, but I come to thetailsection specifically for its speculative nature (and to catch what I may have missed)…
Comment by cap10tripps — April 27, 2007 @ 9:35 am
Trust Hurley…? Was the firing of the flare gun just comic relief with consequences or was it DELIBERATE? I am not suggesting, nor do I believe, that Hurley is an Other. Also, I should point out that I am not a munitions expert, but I have fired a few flare guns. They do not go off with a single trigger pull or during some kind of “OOPS” moment. They are designed to be very stable for survival purposes. To make one fire, you have to pull back on the hammer and manually cock it, then squeeze the trigger. Hurley did all this and EVEN AIMED IT to go straight up through the trees. It’s a stretch for me to beleive that this was just a bone-headed mistake.
Besides, Doc’s question was who can you TRUST, not who has lied. I think there is a difference. On his list I voted for Mikhail for the same reasons as Joe above. If the list was expanded, I would easily vote for Sayid. He has been a bit tentative lately but has consistantly been trustworthy from the start. Even his big reveal about being a member of the Iraqi Republican Guard was announced by him to the 815ers early and upfront without the need for us to piece together flashbacks.
Comment by falconstein — April 27, 2007 @ 9:56 am
Who can you really trust?? Everyone seems to be currently telling a lie or willing to perform some terrible act!
Comment by MikerMan — April 27, 2007 @ 11:58 am
Frankly, I don’t trust any of the above, but if I had to put my life in the hands of any one of them at this moment, knowing only what we have observed thus far I have to go with Locke.
While Locke is willing to apparently make sacrifices to discover his role and mission on the island, I know what his agenda is and therefore can take everything he says and examine it against what I know his agenda to be and what my intersts are and therefore make informed decisions.
parachutists is a mystery
Ben is too wylie and unknowable
Juliet works for (willingly or not) Ben
Mikhail works with Ben and his group
Comment by Noblelawyer — April 27, 2007 @ 12:11 pm
I agree with B and can’t believe more people haven’t considered this conclusion: The Parachutist was completely out of it! After seeing the episode twice, I strongly disagree that she was speaking directly to Mikhail. Because she was so disoriented, it also provides creedence to why she was rambling in so many different languages. Mikhail lied because he obviously knows something we don’t, but the jury on whether or not to trust her is still completely out to lunch.
Comment by James — April 27, 2007 @ 12:17 pm
When has Ben ever told a LIE other than who he was? You can’t blame him for that either… if the Losties knew he was in charge of “the others” they would never have let him go.
Ben manipulates and tricks, but he doesn’t lie.
I think Juliet will end up being one of the good guys… she will follow Jack’s lead and vice versa.
Locke has no intention of leaving the island, doesn’t care if the others get rescued… he’s walking again and is more concerned about learning the secrets of the island.
Naomi I feel was bringing the satellite phone to Mikhail to re-establish communications with the island, but also working with Penny to locate Desmond. So she can’t be all bad, but it’s enough to consider her dual agenda that of a double agent.
I voted for Mikhail for the simple fact he doesn’t seem to have any allegiances. He works with Ben, but he would probably work with anyone who brought him communication equipment, computers and other supplies. I see a bit of myself in him
Comment by Pitchy — April 27, 2007 @ 12:30 pm
Does anybody know what she said to Mikhail? Under her pic above it is mentioned she told him she was not alone but I don’t see that anywhere else.
Comment by JoeMe — April 27, 2007 @ 1:10 pm
Tom? If we should keep in mind Locke creepily telling Walt about a secret, we maybe should remember Tom’s part in kidnapping Walt, shooting Sawyer, and firebombing the raft, don’t you think?
Comment by Tim J. — April 27, 2007 @ 1:14 pm
Locke knows more than anyone else about the island, and we only know a tiny fraction of what Locke does. Locke has never intentionally harmed anyone. I’m convinced Locke is manipulating Ben! Ben thinks the sub is gone, and all ties to the island are now cut off. Ben said it himself, he’s only in charge because people think he can get them off the island. So, all this upheaval of power amongst the others talk? What if Locke at a KEY moment reveals the sub is NOT destroyed? Ben would lose any power he has, and Locke can let everyone off the island.
Comment by John — April 27, 2007 @ 1:39 pm
Did anyone translate the Chinese that the parachutist Naomi was speaking? It’s probably another clue about who she is and whether or not she is out to help or hurt the losties.
Comment by C — April 27, 2007 @ 1:54 pm
D, With all due respect, exactly why are you here? You are arguing the definition of theory. This is not a scientific experiment. The term “theory” in the context of what we contribute to this site is more than applicable. It is an explanation of observations. We observe certain events on the show and work out an explanation based on those observations.
Big stinking deal whether what we do is technically conjecture or speculation. Your point was made, but you can argue symmantics somewhere else. Either engage in the discussion at hand or move on.
Comment by TabulaRasa — April 27, 2007 @ 3:00 pm
D: I can respect that you are clinging to a particular definition, but even that definition applies. Yes, a lot of ‘theorys’ rely on too much speculation, but it is possible to piece together conclusions using the fact. You forget that it is the conjecture that advances the learning on a particular area. Remember though, in our context this is theory as it applies to fiction. Do you know music theory at all? This is not physical science this is fiction; in our context hard fact would be a paradox of the medium.
Comment by docarzt — April 27, 2007 @ 4:31 pm
falconstein said, “Trust Hurley…? Was the firing of the flare gun just comic relief with consequences or was it DELIBERATE?”
Yeah, I share your suspicion. Was Hurley just playing with the gun, happening to aim it skyward, when he accidentally fired it? There’s something about Hurley and the way he influences events.
Not for one second do I believe that Hurley is evil, or an Other, or an other Other. I just think that there’s something about Hugo which is significant and remains to be revealed.
Comment by Lance — April 27, 2007 @ 8:21 pm
TabulaRasa, I don’t think there’s sufficient evidence in most of the ‘theories’ provided in these discussions. I see a lot of questionable readings/interpretations of ‘observations’– most of which betray parsimony or common sense . . . not to mention that these observations are often mistaken as beholden or accountable to real life conditions despite the LOST universe being a fictive and intentional creation restrained by the limits of cinematic production and narrative structure.
The show has provided only sparse groundwork for future considerations. These sorts of conversations tend to revolve around information introduced outside the narrative (internet rumors and coy allusions privy to inside information) rather than information on the show.
In regards to the topic at hand, we’ve only seen enough of Juliette and Locke’s story to make any kind of educated estimation. So far, neither of them can be trusted because they are motivated by self-interest rather than that of the community.
Juliette has proven that she will do almost anything to secure her own release. Locke has vocalized that his agenda has diverged from the survivors, and he has displayed erratic behavior in the face of confrontation that might sidetrack his ambitions. At heart, his constitution is weak, yet he plays to strength.
As I have already said about the others in the list, we don’t have any information about their intentions. Ben’s story is far from obvious. Mikhail is a curiously ambiguous character in that we are not aware of his allegiance.
Maybe someone out there picked up on something reasonable? I wouldn’t know.
Comment by D — April 27, 2007 @ 10:22 pm
and Doc– when studying fiction, there is such a thing as bad conjecture, especially when it has a habit of never being close to the mark. Even though LOST does not inhabit the real world, we can say there are undeniable facts pertaining to the course of the story: Jack did this, Kate did that, Smoke Monster killed so-and-so. We can build a base of evidence from what has been displayed. But I’m seeing conclusions not based on fact, but the desires and preferences of viewers projected onto the story.
Just out of curiosity, why did you add the parachuter to the list of ‘bad guys?’
Comment by D — April 27, 2007 @ 10:30 pm
The important question is not who can we trust…
“Who knows what is really happening on the island?”
That’s the question of the hour. It’s also the thing we are all trying to figure out. This time I ment aplying it to the characters on the show. Since only a few people can actually know what’s up.
I think most of the people on the island are lab rats. The only ones privy this info are Jaccob(w/his team on the third island watching), Ben, Mikhal, and then possibly Locke… and maybe, maybe Desmond. Russeau is a bit of a wild card on this one- She could go either way. But she must of learned somthing durring all her time there. “Mother Time” may be the most knowledgable of them all- She can’t be human…
Yep, two groups: Those who know, then all the rest of them. Ben seemed to have large clan moving with him. Who knows what they know, ya know? I’m wishing I had a head count on all of those people. “Hey Darleton, whats up with all those people?” It would be nice to learn more about them in the next few episodes.
Multiple timelines are confusing, and still dont explain the unnatural occurances, abilities and other phenomenon on the island. This place has to just be some sort of “Twilight Zone” type of parallel diminsion. One which nothing acts as it normally does.
Alice In Wonderland, The bermuda Traingle, The Wizzard Of OZ, Stargate, Star Trek’s worm holes, and countless other examples of this can be seen in stories. Sometimes you get a tornado, somtimes you get a plane crash.
Instead of a witch, evil scientist? Perhaps for some reason the 815′ers were needed as new test subjects. Maybe to see how the island responds to them. Well what ever it is, season three is almost over. I hope we at least find out the purpose of why they are there, or what Dharma is up to before it ends.
spoiler alert:
I’m going to go nuts waiting for season 4!
Comment by Chuck_Farley — April 28, 2007 @ 4:25 am
I don’t think we can trust Naomi. Mikhal was expecting to find her (but not the Lost boys). If the Others have lost communication with the outside world, wouldn’t their base in the real world be trying to contact them - sending 1 or more people to the island to check it out? As for the photo of Desmond and Penny that Naomi had, could this not have filtered through from Mr Widmore to the Others? I think that the producers want us to deduce that Naomi is there because of Penny’s search & the Portuguese connection.
I chose Locke as the person most trustworthy among the list above. He makes mistakes (some on purpose) but he just reminds me of a little boy finding his feet in the new big wide world! It’s a constant learning experience for him.
Comment by Jon — April 28, 2007 @ 7:15 am
Mikhail IS Radzinsky.
When we first saw “Patchy” in one of the Pearl monitor
screens, there was some speculation that it was
actually Inman’s Swan partner Radzinsky even before
“Enter 77″ revealed that the figure was (allegedly) a
veteran of Russia’s war with Afghanistan named Mikhail
Balkunin (as noted, after the Russian anarchist of the
same name, continuing a pattern of naming key
characters after prominent philosophers such as Locke,
Hume and Rousseau) but I’m willing to bet that his
notations in the manuscript galley and many of those
appearing on the Swan blast door map share the exact
same writing style - haven’t been in a position to
compare them closely, but my recollection is that such
a comparison will bear out this line of reasoning…..
Obviously a question is raised if Mikhail is
Radzinsky: why would Inman go to such great lengths to
convince Desmond his partner had killed himself? Easy
answer: to more thoroughly sell the ’sickness’ ruse
and dissuade Des from venturing beyond the Swan hatch;
if Desmond believed that Radzinsky had become so ill
as a result of it that he was driven to suicide, then
Inman could manipulate him in other ways, such as
drawing him out at a most opportune time for Oceanic
815 to be brought down by the unchecked magnetic
pulse’s Hutchinson effect. Was it a reconstituted
DHARMA that conspired with Inman to do so? Or did, as
I strongly suspect will be revealed soon, the Others
(having switched out pilots) hijack the plane with the
full intention of landing it before Kelvin sabotaged
their plans? Cindy’s presence as a stewardess confirms
this beyond a shadow of a doubt. How did Inman know
about Flight 815, anyhow? Ben clearly knew and was
only surprised by its breaking up before his eyes,
possibly because his salvation in the form of a
miraculous spinal surgeon was jeopardized…..
Answer: Kelvin was in steady contact with Radzinsky
even after his headstrong partner successfully
convinced ‘the hostiles’ that he wasn’t a threat but
an asset to them and assumed control of the Flame
station; that alleged bloodstain on the ceiling was
never very convincing…..whatever the circumstances
surrounding his abdication of the Swan, ‘Mikhail’
learned of the Others’ plans to bring Oceanic 815 to
the island and alerted Inman in just enough time to
fashion his tricky plan involving the wayward sailor
who supposedly washed ashore almost 3 years before - I
don’t believe we can be sure that Desmond arrived on
the island as presented in “Live Together, Die Alone”
either…..
Also, with regards to Juliet being pregnant herself:
there is no way she would’ve agreed to sex without
contraception while knowing that it could mean death -
unless that too is a lie and the Others have a very
different reason after all to keep her on the
island…..
Comment by Ogam5 — April 28, 2007 @ 8:29 am
Yes! There is definitely going to be the absurd when it comes to fiction theory, but that is what we want! We’re trying to make a soup, not a broth.
Why Naomi Is Bad: I add her to the potential bad guys because she was fishing for a language nobody could understand. Remember, she spoke in Chinese as well as Spanish and Portugeuse and the Losties understood her, as soon as she started speaking Italian they didn’t know what she was saying. So once she figured out what language they couldn’t understand, she used that language to tell Mikhail she was ‘not alone’. Not the behavior of a ‘good’ guy.
Comment by DocArzt — April 28, 2007 @ 8:33 am
D there have been over 128 posts to this thread so that speaks to the fact that people like the speculative nature of it. Some people enjoy LOST not only for the story but also like a puzzle with hidden clues that allow people to speculate on the foreshadowing that they imply. Some people get enjoyment from discussing POSSIBLE story lines that may or may not be true. If you don’t enjoy that then LOST means something else to you. Obviously though the majority of people here do enjoy it.
Comment by H20 — April 28, 2007 @ 12:40 pm
I don’t want to sound insulting to anybody, but wouldn’t it be better just to ignore him like you ignore alot of the other posts on the site?
I should take my own advice because I’m doing it here, but bashing him just clogs up the board with useless posts. I love this site (thanks for everything Doc) and probably check it at least 15 times a day (I have a LOST obsession). I do have problems when people criticize the site, because it’s Doc’s site and he can do whatever he wants. But I have an even bigger problem with people wasting their time complaining about other posts, starting petty arguments. I want to read about LOST, not an argument about the definition of a “theory” or a critique of somebody’s punctuation.
Comment by C — April 28, 2007 @ 2:47 pm
C, exactly my thoughts. I love the site, but Doc, why are you giving so much time and effort to the posts that are negative instead of the ones that are sticking to and expanding upon your original topic? It is your site and you can do whatever you want so please don’t take the previous statement as trying to tell you what to do. One problem with the negativity and picking on the “correct” use of language is that it actually gets people’s attention and thus gives those that are negative more reason to do so. A lot of complaining could be stopped by simply ignoring it.
Comment by bdub — April 28, 2007 @ 4:05 pm
Of the people you’ve noted above, DocArzt, I’d have to say I trust Locke the most, but I don’t trust him entirely.
If I had to put my faith in one character on this show, it would be Alex. From what we’ve seen to date, she has a good heart, has extended herself for the lostaways, and has no known evil agenda. I’m eager to see how the eventual reunion with her mother will play out.
Comment by Tresbien — April 28, 2007 @ 7:22 pm
Man, I think some of you guys missed the point of everything I said. I didn’t “criticize the site” (criticism is rarely a bad thing, however).
I’m just trying to raise the point that maybe people are asking a lot questions or chasing ideas that don’t stack well. It’s interesting to see how people put together the information from the show, but too often it’s an unrealistic estimation. I suppose there are tangents from which I could drive forth, but I won’t.
Honestly, I have no idea what the story has yet to reveal. Maybe I’m a little cautious because one can’t find much certainty in the future of a story that changes and responds to real world conditions (actors leaving, fans flipping out, production problems, etc)– which, in itself is a fascinating subject intertwining of art, culture, and technology.
Back to Lost speculation: Since Locke doesn’t want to leave the island, and we have heard that there will be divisions in the beach camp, I’m curious who might follow his lead? People like Kate and Sawyer who have nowhere to go? I can’t see either having much of a future if they returned to the States.
I don’t see Jack’s division working with the Others since he really does want to leave. At this point, his behavior on the beach might be explained as a man defeated or coming to terms with the fact that he might never leave the Island. This leaves me intensely curious what wrench he will throw into our perception of the story at the end of the season. Perhaps it is revealed that he killed someone in Thailand. Beats me. I still think of him as a man to be trusted, especially after his venomous attitude towards the Others at the beginning of the season.
Comment by D — April 29, 2007 @ 2:58 am
Definitely Juliet. She has a good heart and she wants to leave the island.
I wouldn’t trust Locke because he has his own agenda and he has always been a victim.
Comment by detective — April 29, 2007 @ 11:50 am
“Who can ya trust?”
I know I can’t trust Hurley, who aims a flare gun skyward and fires it and then says, “Ooops,” and who then tips Mikhail off to the fact that Naomi was carrying a satellite phone.
Comment by Lance — April 29, 2007 @ 9:01 pm
I think she was saying “I’m not alone”
Comment by jason — April 30, 2007 @ 11:11 am
Has any one considered that the girl from the helicopter could be a other that has been planted to tell the castaways there plane was found with no survivors to stop them hoping of getting home and to stop them from disrupting the others mission or work.
Why was she stabbed you ask?
Well Mikel said she would be fine in a day and if the others know that healing is done at light speed on the island they may have deliberatly done this.
Look at Mikel he thanked them for pushing him into the security system knowing he would die but would once again be alive as he points out by saying i’ve already died once this week to Desmond.
This could possibly be why people say Ben will die as he will at the end of season3 but will be back in season 4 miracuosly recovered and again leading the others as.
But if Charlie dies he will not be back as he has been selected by what i can only presume is the island to die and there is no getting around this.
Though it seems that if the island has a purpose for you , you are temporarily invincible as Mikel is needed to reupload the links to outside world and ben is needed for something by this mysterious jacob should he die.
Comment by darren locke — April 30, 2007 @ 11:17 am