UPDATED - LOST Spoiler - Guys… WTF are we?
Okay, it is out. If you read the post below, you know what i am talking about. I have confirmed through a couple of extremely reliable sources that this is what is told by Naomi at the end of ‘D.O.C’. Prepare to be shocked and amazed…
UPDATED: The line is from D.O.C NOT The Brig!
Here are a couple of different versions…
"So essentially, Naomi is somewhat confused and asks Hurley who he is and how he got on the island. He says something like ‘We’re survivors from Oceanic Flight 815′. She replies something like ‘That’s impossible. They found Oceanic Flight 815, and there were no survivors."
Source #2
"Naomi tells them that the wreckage of flight 815 was found and that everybody was dead."
Source #3
"She says that they found the plane and that everyone was presumed dead."
So you can see the variation here, I highlighted ‘presumed’ because that particular guy would not use a word like that recklessly, but he still may have in this case. So what do you think folks? Proof of alternate time lines? In this case, which time line have we been watching since the beginning of the show??
Well that explains why noone is looking for them but it gives us more questions and mysteries needing to be solved.
Like how the hell did they find wreckage of a plane with no survivors when the plane wreckage is all over the island and the survivors are on the island as well??
Was it all a setup by the others? Did they have anything to do with the other plane ??
Alternate time theories??
Its going to be interesting to hear everyones theorys on this new discovery. Looking forward to it.
Heres one the others might not have had any connection to flight 815 crashing on the island but they wouldn’t want people searching for the survivors in case they found the island. They have alot of very high connections with people who could easily get enough money to purchase a plane and paint it within a day or so to make it look like oceanic flight 815 and then crash it in a far enough away from the island but in a spot it wouldve been flying over to make people beleive that the flight did indeed crash. Just a thought
Comment by DMS — April 24, 2007 @ 8:02 am
Does anyone think this is the game changer they were talking about? ? It sounds like a game changer
Comment by DMS — April 24, 2007 @ 8:03 am
Don’t sources 2 and 3 mean EXACTLY the same thing. Unless he meant that nobody was ON the flight, but that would’nt make sense. Mind you, what does on this show =)
Comment by Elliott — April 24, 2007 @ 8:03 am
I apologise, i meant sources 1 and 2. Sorry guys >.I apologise, i meant sources 1 and 2. Sorry guys >.<
Comment by Elliott — April 24, 2007 @ 8:05 am
couldn’t “jacob” have created fake wreckage, so no one would look for the survivors? like bought a plane and had it crashed…if he can cure cancer, couldn’t he fool everyone into thinking they found 815?
Comment by mike — April 24, 2007 @ 8:16 am
Tx for sharing this very cool spoiler Docartz!
Perhaps who/whomever (e.g., Hanso, CIA, etc.) is orchestrating our Island saga intentionally provided a replica Oceanic 815 for searchers to find so as to end the searching which may have revealed our Island. Perhaps the purpose of button pushing was to cloak the Island from discovery, which Desmond’s fail safe action uncloaked our island for our Arctic monitors to sense and report to Penny et al - RichPundit
Comment by RichPundit — April 24, 2007 @ 8:18 am
ok, this could be good
if where the island is, is a junction between the timelines, and one kept going and crashed in the real world, and our plane crashed on the island that would make sense (i suppose!!)
although //3 makes the most sense to me, as in the survivours were’nt like, duplicated.
well see i guess, these spoilers can be so wrong sometimes.
Comment by rich — April 24, 2007 @ 8:19 am
The presumed dead source would work with my theory of the others after learning about the 815 crash didn’t want anyone finding the island and had a phony 815 crash set-up where it was so catastrophic that obviously noone “survived” even though there was actually noone on the plane. (other than the pilot and co-pilot who bailed out before the crash)… But thats just a theory
Comment by DMS — April 24, 2007 @ 8:20 am
Any of these scenarios are not game changers. What’s the big deal about faking a plane crash site so that people aren’t looking for the real one?
Think about it. It just means that there are people with large enough amounts of money and ill will to do such a thing, which, guess what? Sounds like something the Others would do, based on what appears to be some very large financial backing(Hererat Airline, a submarine, an ISLAND where research is done)
That doesn’t sound nearly as good of a game changer as they found the flight “3 years ago” and there were no survivors.
Now that would be a game changer.
Comment by El Prez — April 24, 2007 @ 8:23 am
I think its a safe Bet to say this is the Game-Changer
Question: I recall you having an interview with somebody associated with Lost and talking about a “game changing” episode where we’ll be blown away and everything will be turned on its head. Has this episode already aired? I sure hope not.
Comment by steve — April 24, 2007 @ 8:24 am
There were 300 some-odd passengers, and around 50 are UNACCOUNTED for off of the island. Authorities would bet that they are all dead, and the missing handful are scattered in the ocean never to be found. Finding wreckage with a whole lot of bodies doesn’t bring on excitement. Just proves that there is a very resourceful outside influence trying to get the losties to the island.
After all, why were there not more dead bodies in the wreckage immediately after the crash?
The only real shocker would be footage somewhere of a dead Hurley or Charlie being dragged out of the water. I doubt we will see it.
Possible Explanations:
1. The crash was staged for the losties. The real flight 815 landed, the losties were taken off, then they crashed in an area that the flight would have been easily found, memories implanted.
2. The crash was staged for the world. The bodies were recovered by the others and dumped at the staged crash site.
3. The second plane in one of the above scenarios was supposed to land (caps theory is growing on me) but Desmond’s delayed action thwarted someone elses plan.
4. Two 815’s resulting from some time loop or dimensional divergence, kinda like the two photos of Penny and Desmond made from a Polaroid.
Comment by TabulaRasa — April 24, 2007 @ 8:25 am
Supposing two different timelines are created a certain point in time. You are in one timeline. You gain the ability to go back in time. Now the question might become, which timeline are you allowed to affect by your actions in the past? If your destiny is to not make any changes, and therefore remain STUCK in your own timeline, what is to say you cannot have a ripple affect on the alternate timeline?
Comment by Valenzetti — April 24, 2007 @ 8:41 am
I really don’t think this is game changing info., In fact it is nothing that makes me think “OH MY GOD” or anything. I figure the Others, Jacob, HANSO, Whitmore, or any one of other organizations/people that we have learned about with apparently inexhaustible means planted that information. Whether it was an information cover-up or at faked crash landing.
Also, whenever a plane has crashed in the ocean, they don’t necessarily find all of it, and they certainly don’t find everyone’s body, but they still say that (unless they do find survivors) that everyone died. The fact that the losties survived is a miracle. It also could mean that the island does move, so that the searches did find part of the plane (the tail) where it landed in the ocean, but the island wasn’t there by the time they got there.
Also could mean that the island is in a different dimension or has the ability to go into a different dimension. Maybe pushing the button kept the island in the different dimension, with it only appearing every 108 minutes if the button wasn’t pushed. When Desmond didn’t push the button soon enough on that fateful day the island began to come back into our dimension which caused the plane to crash. Since the “sky turned purple” the island has remained in our dimension which is how the parachutist got there.
Anyway, lots of reasons they could have found parts of the plane and therefore believed everyone was dead.
In fact, I had already assumed by this time that the world would have already presumed everyone was dead whether they had found the wreckage or not.
Comment by Noblelawyer — April 24, 2007 @ 8:47 am
I think the Hanso foundation has planted another plane wreckage to keep people from looking for the missing plane,remember oceanic airlines is now no more, the Hanso foundation has taken over, its now called hansoair in our time line, and the hanso foundation always worked in partnership with oceanic airlines creating their flight technology!
Comment by nick — April 24, 2007 @ 8:48 am
This sounds consistent with the comment that the question will change from “Where are we?” to “Who are we?” I’m imagining a revelation that the Losties are not who they think they are, but are instead some sort of shape-changing, memory-losing island-based life form that got implanted with the memories and appearances of the 815 passengers, in much the same way that the smoke monster seems to sample memories. They are essentially conscious versions of the various animals and peoples that appear to manifest from flashbacks. Remember Ben’s spiel about a wish-fulfillment “box”? Maybe Ben’s desire for a cancer cure and Juliette’s need for a pregnant test subject caused the island to “sample” the 815 passengers. The Others may or may not know all this about the Losties.
Comment by David — April 24, 2007 @ 8:48 am
Occam’s razor time folks. I don’t think this confirms any kind of time travel (I still don’t believe there has been any or alternate time lines)
Who ever is behind the others (be it Dharma, Hanso, etc) faked a new crash to make sure no one looks for the island. Simple as that/
Comment by Akbar Fazil — April 24, 2007 @ 8:54 am
Akbar… the producers have confirmed that Desmond did travel through time. There is no question of that.
Comment by docarzt — April 24, 2007 @ 8:56 am
TabulaRasa, I think it’s definitely #3 in your list.
I wrote out more in a comment in the previous story (Kristen gives vague spoilers) but I’ll hit the high points of my theory. Heck, it’s not a theory anymore… I thought of it about 2 weeks ago, and EVERYTHING we’ve learned since then in the show or from ‘verified’ spoilers just reinforces it.
Theory:
When Desmond went back in time, he made just enough changes to cause the plan to crash differently. We know that he still had to go to the island and push the button, but something could have happened differently to cause the plan to crash differently. For example, the plan turned back to to a malfunction… perhaps the plan was going to crash no matter what due to mechanical failure, and the Swan Station malfunction just hastened it and brought it down on the island instead of the middle of the ocean.
We now have proof there are two timelines. Desmond and Naomi have the same photograph, and it was a one-copy photograph.
Original timeline: Desmond took the photo.
New timeline: Penny took the photo.
This is also the reason we didn’t see Penny until after the hatch exploded. The new timeline DID NOT EXIST until then, because that’s when Desmond went back in time. Until he went back and shifted a few small things, Penny was NOT looking for him!!
On the island, everyone is safe from the new timeline’s effects. Whatever protects the island (an EM field?) shields them. That’s how two copies of that photograph can exist right now. That’s how the Oceanic people can be alive there, when outside the island everyone on the plane died in the crash 3-4 months ago.
This is also the purpose of the “Connections” in the flashbacks. They’ve spent 3 years weaving a very elaborate web. In “Flashes”, Desmond made a tug on one end that rearranged the entire web.
We’ll see evidence of this in the season finale, when we see Jack’s flashbacks from the new timeline, in which his dad did not die and he was not on Oceanic 815. See my other post for more info on that!
I’d say this is a heck of a game changer!
Can anyone blow a hole in this theory? In fact, I think this theory is the only thing that makes sense given the facts, given the hints of what’s to come, and given the tidbits the creators give us that don’t make sense.
Comment by Nick — April 24, 2007 @ 8:58 am
akbar, you should read some other stuff on this site(or maybe re-watch!), you dont believe there has been any time travel??
what a missunderstanding!!
anyway, good call el prez, it wouldnt be a game changer if they faked a crash! but it would be if there is some kind of time distortion or something.
Comment by rich — April 24, 2007 @ 9:01 am
I’ve seen multiple posts pointing to the duplicate desmond/penny photo. I must be missing some reason why the existence of two photographs proves anything other than the technological capability to make a copy of a photo - which would require either a home scanner/printer or a trip to your local Kinkos or Walmart. It’s a lot harder to clone people at this point than it is to clone a photograph. We’ve mastered the latter haven’t we? Maybe I’m just missing something. I just assumed the second photo was proof that someone was looking specifically for Desmond, period.
Comment by Valenzetti — April 24, 2007 @ 9:09 am
My guess is that the wreckage was probably staged by the others, unless something Desmond did in “Flashed before your eyes” changed the timeline so that the flight crashed elsewhere. With all the connections between people it is certainly possible that the flight was delayed a minute or something.
Obviously if it is a time line issue then the island is somehow removing the inhabitants from the normal time stream and keeping things the same even when the time lines change.
In the podcast Cuse and Lindelof have conclusively said that Christian Shepard is DEAD and did not qualify that in any way. So I’m not sure about the Jack flashback with him being alive. How would that happen anyway? Jack is in the timeline he is in, how would he have a flashback to a different timeline?
Comment by Eric — April 24, 2007 @ 9:11 am
They may have confirmed he did time travel, but they haven’t confirmed exactly what kind of time travel he did.
I personally think it was all in his head. I don’t think he physically traveled at all nor changed anything. When he flipped the kill switch, what ever happened then allowed his brain to exist again in his past. The old lady in the jewelry shop was just his subconscious telling him he can’t change anything. Having the old lady in the picture on the Monks desk was just a reminder that this is how Desmond’s correct path started.
And rich, please don’t claim I have a misunderstanding of things. It is rather insulting to say that my theories on something are the result of my not getting something.
Comment by Akbar Fazil — April 24, 2007 @ 9:11 am
Velenzetti,
The photo is so important because there was no opportunity for it to BE copied. A hard copy was given to them by a vendor, so it’s not like there’s a negative to easily copy it. I’m sure a physical photo can be copied nicely, but Penny and Desmond split up RIGHT after it was taken. If one of them took it, and they didn’t see each other again until outside the stadium (seen in Season 2’s flashbacks), then there was no opportunity for one of them to make a copy of it, creating two copies.
I realize this is somewhat wishy-washy reasoning, but I feel very confident that this is the intention of the show’s writers. There’s nothing to contradict it within the show, except for the common sense concept of going to Kinko’s, but simple explanations are often thrown out the window in Lost!
Comment by Nick — April 24, 2007 @ 9:13 am
Just a theory- probably stupid.
What if this is similar to the movie ‘The Others’ with Nicole Kidman.
What if the losties are actually dead and died on the plane, and all the whispers and stuff that they hear are actually the Living people who were probably looking for them and found wreckage. And what if the others are the only people/beings that can commuicate with them ???????????????????????????
Comment by fred — April 24, 2007 @ 9:14 am
Well Valenzetti, the photo is a curious bit.
We first saw the photo back at the start of Season 2 when it was in the hatch with Desmond.
We saw it a second time at the end of Season 2 on Penny’s night stand.
The third time it was seen it was again in Desmonds possesion after the hatch exploded and we saw in his “time travel” that Desmond kept the photo and it was assumed that he then had the only copy.
Comment by Akbar Fazil — April 24, 2007 @ 9:15 am
akbar, sorry dude, but i only said that because thats exactly what i said at the time of “flashes”. i said it al happened in his head, as in his life flashed b4 his eyes, but it has been confirmed that he did in fact loop in time.
sorry again, but i would think its better to know this now b4 watching the rest. no offense meant dude.
Comment by rich — April 24, 2007 @ 9:19 am
Nick, you are assuming there was no chance for it to be copied.
Just because we haven’t seen exactly what happened after the photo taking and Penny and Desmond breaking up DOES NOT MEAN there was no chance for it to be copied.
Here are some possibilities:
1. Penny and Desmond did try to patch things up after that but Desmond still left
2. Penny in a bit of desperation to hold onto Desmond went back to the photog and got a copy of the negative (probably not plausible with the film used, but wouldn’t be the first time Lost has played with reality)
Comment by Akbar Fazil — April 24, 2007 @ 9:20 am
You know what all this stuff sounds good but i don’t think they can answer it, i think they will leave this debate open for months like all the ohers without giving any real answers, this was probably just another stunt put forth to hope to silence all the other talk about what is going on, on the island, I don’t think they have a clue i think the producers like things from different films they’ve seen like final destination with desmond and the plane crash and have absolutely no way of being able to answer it at least ina logical fashion, they just keep creating more complexities with out answering any of the old ones, the classic ooow that sounds good and we’ll figure out how to answer it later!
Comment by nick — April 24, 2007 @ 9:22 am
Well rich, just because the producers did say he looped in time or what ever does not mean that it still did not happen in his head like I suggested. It is something that is not 100% clear (and probably never will be along with many other finer points of Lost that have been thrown to the side)
Keep in mind the whole Jae Lee murder/suicide. How long did it take the producers to confirm it was a suicide? How many times have the producers thrown out foilers?
I don’t think you have to accept the whole “he really travelled in time” theory to be able to grasp the story. It can still be taken in with either side of that thinking.
Comment by Akbar Fazil — April 24, 2007 @ 9:24 am
Eric,
I think that the Christian Shepard of the ORIGINAL timeline IS dead. Jack just saw the monster or hallucinated or something in season 1.
However, I’m saying that Jack’s dad is alive in the NEW timeline.
This is the kind of sort of true, sort of false thing that Cuse and Lindelof love to say. Yeah, he’s dead, but in the new timeline he’s not! So they didn’t lie, but they didn’t tell the whole truth! Am I wrong in thinking they love to do that?
Comment by Nick — April 24, 2007 @ 9:24 am
Yes Nick that is exactly what they do and in retrospect we will understand that they were sidestepping the issue of telling the whole truth.
Comment by H20 — April 24, 2007 @ 9:36 am
I know we’ve been told it isn’t purgatory, but come on what else could explain it? The alternate time line theory is just crazy.
Comment by Kyle — April 24, 2007 @ 9:49 am
Think about this, and sorry if I am duping somebody, but there are actually three time lines. The third one we know nothing about, this is the one where things flowed completely differently and the end of the universe was brought about (I have a theory, I’ll post it in a bit). Brother Campbell was also assisting ‘course correction’, but from a different time-line. I firmly believe Catch-22 was telling us that what we think is the normal timeline, the one with oceanic 815, is a result of the Brother Campbell event and was created to try to stop a catastrophic time space event. As a result, it created another one. Since the force which permits the time travel is on the island, the island is a privileged frame of reference. The sky turning purple was significant to the collapse of the universe around the island. I’ll explain why.
Comment by docarzt — April 24, 2007 @ 9:50 am
Hmmmm…
I am personally leaning towards “the Others dragged the wreckage and whatever remains they could collect to another site where it could be “found.”
I agree that in terms of a large jet crashing over the ocean, nobody’s going to quibble about less than 100 bodies being absent.
I think it also nicely explains the “wow, those tides are sure going out fast” mystery from season one, as well as Paula, the experienced diver who drowned early on. The tides weren’t moving out quickly–the sub was being hooked up to the wreckage nightly for a couple of nights and gradually dragging it out. Paula saw the sub, and thus had to be eliminated.
Comment by GaladrielsMirror — April 24, 2007 @ 9:56 am
All I can think of is, if the Others DID fake a second crash so no one would come looking for the 815ers, then Michael is going to run into some problems once someone finds him and Walt on that boat. Especially because I doubt he has ID on him, and some tiny South Pacific country or cruise liner in the middle of no where would have the means of checking fingerprints or dental records.
Hooray for chaos!
Comment by Jeff — April 24, 2007 @ 9:57 am
The Island is not just a physical island, but also a metaphorical one. Time flows like a river, but the island stays still.
Stephen King’s books have shown up throughout the series recently, but the most relevant one is The Langoliers. Plane. Time anomaly. Survivors who want to get back to reality.
Perhaps the island-dwellers can travel through space-time, and that’s how they can know so much about the beach clan. They are everywhere and everywhen.
Comment by AC — April 24, 2007 @ 10:01 am
I’m sorry if this is common knowledge by now, but when did they confirm time travel? I thought they denied actual time travel but confirmed that there could be some kind of problem with the concept of time. I just want to know when/where it was said.
Comment by bdub — April 24, 2007 @ 10:03 am
Regarding the photo I see where you’re coming from but I’m definitely in the camp of thinking it’s a big leap of assumption to think there was no opportunity for the copy.
But like Akbar said we see the photo on Penny’s nightstand, which is before Desmond’s timetravel stuff.
Fact: Desmond and Penny broke up right after the picture was taken. The FIRST time around. Fact: During Desmond’s trip through time he could not accept trying to change his destiny, therefore he made SURE he broke up with her right after picture was taken. If this is true and remained unchanged, then how did a copy land on Penny’s nightstand?
It’s funny because this didn’t strike me in the least bit curious until I saw other posts about it.
Comment by Valenzetti — April 24, 2007 @ 10:06 am
bdub, I am with you on that one. I have seen conflicting information from the producers on the whole time travel issue.
Comment by Akbar Fazil — April 24, 2007 @ 10:07 am
Didn’t the wreckage get washed out to sea? Is it possible that’s what was found?
Comment by Lost Fan — April 24, 2007 @ 10:14 am
I don’t think the photo thing proves any kind of 2 time lines. Here’s why:
Ok, say Desmond has the one and only copy in timeline A. The sky turns purple and he goes back in time and creates timeline B in which Penny has the photo and he awakens on the island naked and with the ability to see the future…at least, charlie’s death. Assuming that’s timeline B and Penny has the photo wouldn’t it cease to exist from Desmond’s possessions? The fact that he also has one in timeline B means that in timeline B there are 2 copies. So while we know that he did in fact go back in time (thanks to the producers) the fact that there are 2 photos doesn’t mean anything.
Comment by boombalonga — April 24, 2007 @ 10:16 am
What took the pilot.. and why?
Seems to me that if you wanted to cover something up, or hide something… you’d need to get rid of the people that would actually know something.
The pilot had to go…
It’s always been very suspicious to me that the pilot was disposed of in such a way, but NO ONE else was.
Comment by Joe Cobb — April 24, 2007 @ 10:17 am
Right alternate time lines aren’t a pre-requisite at all. We could be seeing the tear down and reconstruction of the universe…
Comment by docarzt — April 24, 2007 @ 10:18 am
Well Joe Cobb, if you accept that it was smokey who took the pilot and smokey kills those who he scans and deems unworthy, the pilot could have been scanned earlier and deemed unworthy so smokey came back and took care of him.
Comment by Akbar Fazil — April 24, 2007 @ 10:22 am
Two thoughts on this.
1. It makes sense that the Others setup fake wreckage of flight 815 to keep the real world from looking and possibly stumbling upon the island. They had full resources to do so, since it was well before the swan imploded.
2. Perhaps in the original timeline, a copy of the Des/Pen picture was made. Maybe although Desmond’s time travelling didn’t actually change anything in our “Lost” universe. Perhaps, he created another timeline, like the multiple worlds scenario from quantum physics, that is completely independent of the world we are watching. From a story-telling point, this seems pointless, but from a physics perspective, this seems perfectly viable.
Comment by Chad — April 24, 2007 @ 10:26 am
i don’t understand why the viewers are so resistent to the concept of alternate or parallel time line but cannot devise a theory that explains any or all of the evidence the writers have given us that there ARE alternate timelines. do they need to come out and say it, explicitely? what kind of creativity is in that?
don’t forget: desmond blacked out with no recollection of how or why and awoke to find a monk standing before him. maybe that is the original point of interception in the timeline.
Comment by wickedslip — April 24, 2007 @ 10:40 am
boombalonga,
I suppose the prerequisite for the photograph still existing on the island is that the island is immune to the changes that Desmond’s time traveling has wrought. Personally, I see the photograph still being on the island as PROOF that it’s immune, but that is an assumption, really.
So, I see there’s lots of disagreement about whether the photograph was copies. In all honestly, it absolutely could have been copied. I totally agree with everyone saying that. Common sense says that’s the most likely event.
However, I’m saying ignore commong sense and think like a Lost writer (boy, that sounds mean!). This is a show that RARELY wastes something. It’s a pretty tight web. I think the photograph is supposed to provide physical proof, a touchstone if you will, of the changes that Desmond’s time travel has wrought.
Someone, I think Kristen from E!, said that Naomi would have an item that should not physically exist. It’s reasonable to think this is the photograph. Now, Kristen is privy to much that us normal folks aren’t. So, if she describes it as something that shouldn’t physically exist, I see this as support of the idea of the “only one photo exists normally” theory.
Someone also commented here about the photo being on Penny’s nightstand before the time traveling. Well, don’t forget, that was RIGHT after the time traveling. Desmond time traveled right after the hatch explosion, which was minutes before that final scene in the season 2 finale. It was just that WE didn’t see Desmond’s little trip until 8 episodes later!
As for those arguing that there is no time travel and there are no alternate timelines… yeah, you may be right, but this show has got SOME explanation for everything, and this might be the key. Something weird is going on, and it’s at least possibly (I would argue probable) that this is that weird thing at the center of it all. How is this less believeable, or “crappier”, than the aliens / Others conspiracy / purgatory explanations that are bandied about? At least this theory has roots in what we have seen.
I really, really don’t think that the Others were capable of organizing some great conspiracy surrounding the plane. Nothing I’ve seen this year make me think they’re up for something like that. However, I freely admit that’s possible. I personally just think the time travel stuff is more believable GIVEN what we’ve seen in the show. I realize it’s actually quite outlandish, but this is TV, not reality!
Comment by Nick — April 24, 2007 @ 10:46 am
Right Wicked! There are at least two times that we know Desmond was nudged. Once in ‘Catch-22′, and once in ‘Flashes Before Your Eyes’. ‘Catch-22′ lead to the time line we are in, ‘Flashes’ led to ‘another’ time line (all bets are off with this revelation), and there must be a time line where Desmond was not nudged at all, which gives us a third possibility.. These ‘watchers’ simply saw that his time line brought him close to a sequence of events that accomplished their goal so they bumped him and let course correction take care of any big problems.
Probably the third universe, where Desmond never went to the island, resulted in whatever the end game of the season is. To prevent the collapse of time, whatever.
The producers said on the podcast that Desmond did travel in time and it was reasonable to assume that his changes might have an impact in the future. I believe we are seeing the impact now.
Comment by docarzt — April 24, 2007 @ 10:54 am
If the crash was staged etc.. why then do we see Ben and the Others going outside their houses at the start of season 3 as the plane goes over and then Ben telling Goodwin and Ethan to go and infiltrate the two camps and get lists of the survivors in the 2 locations ? or am I missing the point ?
Comment by Alan — April 24, 2007 @ 11:13 am
Alan,
No, I think other people are ‘missing the point’ (not trying to be mean). It looks like other posters are reading that scene differently. I don’t see any other way to interpret it other than The Others were surprised to see the plane crash, and quickly decided to take advantage of it. But that’s me.
Comment by Nick — April 24, 2007 @ 11:29 am
Bear with me. This is relevant …
Remember in the episode ‘The Other 48 Days’, when the tail-section survivors find the radio, and we hear Bernard say ‘We’re the survivors of flight 815′? When I first saw that my reaction was, ‘Wait a second, that’s not right!’ Until that point, I had thought that the voice Boone hears in ‘Deus Ex Machina’ said, ‘There WERE NO survivors of flight 815.’ Did anyone else think that that was what was said?
Could it be that this conversation was originally intended as an early intimation of the ‘game-changer’, and that the writers changed their minds and decided to give the other half of the conversation to Bernard at a later date?
(I’ve just watched the scene in ‘Deus Ex Machina’ again, and now I’m not so sure. Still, I’d like to know if anyone thought the same.)
While I’m here, I should say that I really hope that parallel timelines isn’t the answer to the mystery which Naomi’s revelation will create. If the 815 survivors are occupying an alternative timeline then they might as well be in purgatory, as far as I’m concerned. It’s the same idea dressed up in the language of science fiction. ‘Anomalous timeline’ is just sci-fi jargon for ‘another world’, which might as well be heaven, hell, purgatory, or (for that matter) a dream. If the bottom-line of the whole Lost mystery turns out to be ‘They’re dead but they don’t know it,’ I am going to be very disappointed. And for anyone who’s thinking, ‘No, they’re not really dead; they’re only dead in OUR reality’: don’t kid yourselves. It’s just the purgatory theory in disguise.
Like Bdub, I would be very interested to know whether the writers have confirmed that time travel/time anomalies are going to be part of the overall plot of the series. A lot of fans seem to be using phrases like ‘the other timeline’ as though that were already an established part of the mythology. Is it?
Comment by Jem — April 24, 2007 @ 11:35 am
It was not the Others that made the plane crash on the island.
Comment by Trent — April 24, 2007 @ 11:37 am
Jem, IIRC, there was much debate over what Boone heard on the radio as it wasn’t entirely clear. I always felt that “The Other 48 Days” confirmed that it just was what Bernard said and nothing at all sinister in terms of game changing.
Comment by Akbar Fazil — April 24, 2007 @ 11:40 am
Jem,
Very, very interesting feeling you’ve got there. I can’t argue with that… alternate timelines would sort of be the Purgatory theory in disguise. I’m personally ok with it, but I can see why you’d be upset if that was revealed as ‘the answer’.
As for the radio thing… yeah, I wouldn’t be shocked if you’re right on the money there. I’m sure they’ve switched around the plan for the show somewhat since Season 1. In S1, I always thought the voice said “NO survivors”, not “We’re the survivors”, but it was hard to tell. If it was a correction they made by having Bernard say it, to delay the ‘game-changer’, I’m sure they’ll tell us in a postcast someday!
Comment by Nick — April 24, 2007 @ 11:46 am
IF.. this turned out to be true… There is a lot of money involved in this somewhere, and crashing a plane COULD be a cover up to protect the Island’s location. But is this the simplest solution? Or would that be a timeline. It does seem extreme to crash a plane when noone had and idea of how to look for it.
I personally have my doubts about the accuracy of this spoiler for the above reason. I kind of hope that isn’t the shocking info.
Comment by tom — April 24, 2007 @ 11:50 am
So many different opinions here. I think that when we talk about the Others covering up the crash it means that they crashed another plane somewhere in the ocean between Sydney and LA. The pilot said that given the alternate course they took that “no one would know where to look for them.” We saw that they have access to an airport that Juliet didn’t know even existed. Why not crash a plane in the ocean with no one on board because they aren’t going to look for bodies in the ocean. If no one would know where to look then there was either a staged crash by someone in an area where they would look or, as has been said repeatedly, alternate timelines. If Desmond could “re-do” 9/22/04 and not let the system failure happen we might be able to see if he relly did cause the crash or not.
On a side note, I’m not sure how much to trust Naomi since the helicopter didn’t make it to the island yet she landed on it plus the gear she wore did not look like something that would be worn on a helicopter.
Comment by Bdub — April 24, 2007 @ 12:23 pm
Nick,
I ought to say that, despite my reservations about divergent timelines as a story idea, I trust Damon and Carlton to make a good job of it. They haven’t let me down yet, after all.
It just seems to me that if you say that the events on the island haven’t taken place in the ‘real’ world, you’re only one step away from saying that they haven’t ‘really’ happened at all. I’m just a little concerned that the ultimate resolution to the whole Lost saga might be some kind of Back to the Future-style short-circuiting of the divergent timeline resulting in the instantaneous cancelling out of everything that has taken place on the island. It’s just too neat. Worse, it’s not all that far from, ‘Oh, it was all a dream! Phew!’
(Actually, that isn’t what happens in Back to the Future, is it? Oh well, you take my point.)
I realise I am getting WAY ahead of myself now. I know they would never settle for a conclusion as glib as that. Nevertheless, once you have introduced divergent timelines you inevitably introduce the possibility of such an easy resolution.
However, having read some of the crazy, NON-time travel theories some people are cooking up, (the others crashing fake planes and so on), I’m starting to hope it IS a divergent timeline after all …
Comment by Jem — April 24, 2007 @ 1:18 pm
Yes, Nick you are correct about how they tend to obfuscate things. However I would think that they would normally say something ambiguous about his being dead and they were very clear. It could be them trying to confuse people a bit more but my personal guess is that he is dead in all of the time lines.
As for Desmond and Penny’s picture, we know that the first thing Desmond tried to do after getting out of prison was see Penny, and that he wrote to her every day from prison, so I would think that they did have a reconciliation.
This might have been in the original time line and I believe that in the podcast they said that there would clearly be an item which didn’t belong in this timeline, but it is possible that they did duplicate the picture. Even without the negative it is possible and not all that difficult.
If this double time line theory about the crash turns out to be true I wonder what will happen when the survivors get off of the island. Will there be two Jacks? Will they all turn into zombies once they get back into the normal timeline? This could all be a set-up for the zombie season…
Comment by Eric — April 24, 2007 @ 1:25 pm
Also - regarding the plane crash wreckage. If a plane crashed in the middle of the ocean it would probably sink to the bottom well before anyone could get to it. Most of the ocean is way deeper than human beings can go, and some of it is probably even deeper than submersibles can go. So it is very possible that they located what they thought was the wreckage on a sonar or something and didn’t actually check out the plane. In fact in an ocean crash that is actually very likely.
But this being Lost I expect it will probably be something more along the lines of the divergent time lines.
Comment by Eric — April 24, 2007 @ 1:28 pm
DocArzt,
So you think there’s still a timeline where Desmond doesn’t go to the island? This one makes the most sense to me, and I would like to see it come true in some way. I also still suspect the series will explore what happened to the characters if the plane never crashed.
Comment by Paula Abdul Alhazred — April 24, 2007 @ 1:37 pm
No they moved the wreckage to another location, the island is still off the map due to the magnetic shield screwing with compasses and GPSs. Penny was looking for DESMOND, who got there via boat, and who became visible at the end of last season. Story goes Penny is the only one who knows and as long as she is still alive (MAJOR PLOT POINT) the island’s location is known.
Looking for Desmond, they found the 815′ers, and there is hope until her father finds out that no good so and so could come back into her life, and he will attempt to hinder.
Comment by samIyam — April 24, 2007 @ 1:38 pm
If we are still supposed to believe that the outside world is still 2004-era, I would say that the suspiciously i-phone looking satellite device is the answer to the what-doesn’t-belong question more than the photo is. But I could be completely wrong (been there before).
On a sidenote, part of my theory about Jacob for a while now has been that he has the same future-seeing abilities that Desmond has just gotten now. Not sure why. Maybe Jacob didn’t push a button every xyz minutes one day in a galaxy far, far away and a similar phenomenon happened.
I thought of this again during last week’s episode as Desmond was explaining to Charlie how it HAD to be these certain people (Hurley, Jin and Charlie) that comes with him on his camping trip. Which if you think about it is a LOT like the lists that the others use. It HAS to be these people. For some reason we don’t know. Except this time with Desmond we know the reason - premonition. I think Jacob’s lists are simply him just trying to ensure things happen the way he’s already seen them. Now why Jack was added to the list without Jacob’s authorization, I don’t know. Maybe that was Ben’s doing.
My who-is-Jacob bet is with Dr. Marvin Candle. My wife’s thrown her hat into the ring and she’s going with Charles Widmore. Which, actually, makes things EXTRA spicy because we’d no doubt have a Widmore/Desmond showdown - battle of the minds.
From what my wife says, Mrs. Hawkings knows that Desmond has to do things as they have been preordained, because of fate. She somehow knew Brother Campbell, so I’m guessing that he also knows this about Desmond, and that is precisely why he fired Desmond as the exact moment when he did . . . he knew that Penny and he would meet. and he knew that they had to meet so that Desmond would eventually end up on the island. And if Widmore is Jacob, and also has this ability, then he treated Desmond precisely in the way that was needed, in order to ensure that he ended up on the island.
Comment by Valenzetti — April 24, 2007 @ 1:42 pm
Paula Abdul Alhazred: Yes. Here is what I think.
1. There is a primary time line where ‘the watchers’ (Brother Campbell and Mrs. Hawking) did not influence anything. In that time line, everything went as normal on the island, but Desmond never showed up to replace Kelvin. So he eventually died with no replacement and the Swan went nuclear and nearly destroyed the universe, or perhaps caused the initial time loop (I think I’m liking that.)
2. Second time through the loop, the watchers try to find somebody whose time-line could be tweaked to have him on the island. This works out to be Desmond. How they come to this conclusion could be some derivative of the valenzetti work, on 11. (The watchers have to be from another dimension.) So Brother Campbell shows up to steer Desmond to Penny and the island. The problem is, he crashes the plane, and winds up turning the false safe. What they need to break the loop is for the timeline to extend beyond where Kelvin died and the swan melted down.
3. Desmond goes back in time, is once again nudged on course by one of the ‘watchers’, which brings us to the time line we are at currently.
The problem for the 815′rs is that when the island put up its exemption shield to contain the time bending effect of the failsafe, they were all transported into the time line of number three. In other words, time line #2 no longer exists.
Comment by docarzt — April 24, 2007 @ 1:51 pm
Just a simple question, if there are multiple timelines, I’m wonder if anyone has any theories has to how the parachutist have crossed between the two timelines them without intending to?
Comment by Barry — April 24, 2007 @ 1:55 pm
That’s not a bad theory, Doc. It certainly adds to the notion that the island is some kind of nexus point for various timelines/the multiverse, a la the Dark Tower. I am hoping Jack’s “flashback” for the finale depicts what happens to him in an alternate chain of events (maybe he never got on the plane in the new timeline). That would certainly be very interesting.
I don’t see how the plane crashes and there are no survivors, even if Desmond did change certain things in “Flashes Before Your Eyes.” Unless the plane had equipment problems or something, and Desmond not hitting the button actually saved some of them when initially they all would have died. I guess that’s definitely plausible. I might have answered my own question on that one!
I have also heard Naomi might not entirely be telling the truth. I can only hope we don’t have another mindgame being directed at us. I’d like at least one 100% genuine answer before the season is out.
Comment by Paula Abdul Alhazred — April 24, 2007 @ 2:08 pm
You guys really are just ruining it for yourselves. I came to the site for the Rachel Blake interview, instead on the front page I find “Big WTF are we” spoiler, ruining the game-changer I’ve been waiting for, for 8 months. Why not just wait for it to come on, why spoil it?
Comment by Evan — April 24, 2007 @ 2:52 pm
WELCOME TO THE JUNGLE EVAN, YOU’RE GONNA CRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY.
Sorry man j/k, but this is a big part of thetailsection.
Comment by cap10tripps — April 24, 2007 @ 3:17 pm
Evan you can wait and find out but for us impatient people who enjoy sharing out theories this is a great site to do so.
Comment by DMS — April 24, 2007 @ 3:27 pm
I think it would be better if they had Naomi say that flight 815 arrived uneventfully in LA, and that in her timeline, the Losties are all going about their lives as if nothing happened because nothing happened to begin with.
Comment by Gwk — April 24, 2007 @ 3:32 pm
I just want to publicly apologize for putting the gun to Evan’s head and FORCING him to click through to the well labeled spoiler. I’m a jerk, and I deserve every stone you guys want to throw at me…
Comment by docarzt — April 24, 2007 @ 3:40 pm
Gwk,
Yeah, but how on earth would she know that? You’ve got yourself a little Catch-22 there! If everything went normal for them, she’d never know to pay attention to it. I mean, say you met someone that was the survivor of Delta 1243, and that flight had never really crashed. You’d just tell them… “um… ok, buddy, whatever you say. I don’t remember that plane crashing, but maybe it did, I dunno.” The only way you’d remember anything about a specific flight is if lots of people died.
If it bleeds it leads. Nobody hears news about a plane landing safely.
Comment by Nick — April 24, 2007 @ 3:48 pm
I agree that you wouldn’t remember a plane simply landing, however you would remember a plane crash killing a lot of people. So instead of saying that it landed she could say that there was no plane crash in September of 2004.
Comment by bdub — April 24, 2007 @ 4:09 pm
I think she is another plant from the others. I never saw a single light from the helicopter she apparetnly fell out of! If hse had been skydiving from super high elevations it would explain the suit, also didn’t we see the private Airport and Private jets in the episode with Juiliet? I think this is being staged due to the fact that desmond can tell the future and the fastest way to get him off the island would be to tell him Penny snet them. So here is the breakdown
Trianglate Priavte jet high high above the islamd
2. Sned boat out wiht Kickin stereo into the ocean to play crashing Helicopter sounds.
3. Possibly hot lady falls from sky and says Hi Desmond!
4. Tell everyone some fibs to make them sad
5. Run away with desmond and use his super Powered/mutated mind to control the world weather he likes it or not!
I hope you like the breakdown
Comment by Kyle — April 24, 2007 @ 4:17 pm
ok, doc, i follow you, but we have yet to anser How Does Parachutist Cross Timelines…is she a Watcher, too? i don’t think so (in my humble opinion). i follow your theory up to the part of The Watcher.
sonia’s wacky theory: the island does not experience time. (it is all time and no time) the Time the lostie’s experience is limited to the perspective of their minds’ measurement (they are fools enslaved by time and space). every time there is an Incident, a new timeline is ripped open. the timelines intercept and cause obvious distress to the continuity of time’s course, possibly leading to catastrophe such as: compelte destruction of the timelines. so, the “box” is hte core of the island, access to all creation. it can tap into timelines and people can access alternate timelines from it. widmore, hanso, et al are still in control of the box, despite the destruction and failure of dharma. my guess is that the Old Lady, The monk and the Parachutust are of the same ilk. they are probably not from any time in particular, but of the island.
Comment by wickedslip — April 24, 2007 @ 4:53 pm
the other’s or whoever could have just dragged the wreckage somewhere…it is gone right? i can never remember what happens in this show.
Comment by anon — April 24, 2007 @ 7:38 pm
Maybe naomi is smokie…
Comment by anbronty — April 25, 2007 @ 3:05 am
Does anyone remember in season 1, that the 815ers had to move camp because the tide was draging in the wreakage, could the wreakage the outside world find actually just be the wreakage that was pulled in by the tide and got caught in a current thus taking it away from the island???
I mean if a plane went missing for 80 so days and then you stumble upon say part of a planes wing floating in the water and it was comfirmed to be Flight 815’s, you would presume that no one survived since they know the plane has crashed.
Sorry if you don’t get what I mean.
Comment by JMACK — April 25, 2007 @ 3:41 am
I’m new to this all time line thing but maybe desmond did die in the hatch originally when he turned the fail safe key,his new point of insertion might explain why he walk up in the jungle naked afterwards, when you would think and any sort of logic would say someone in the centre of an entire hatch exploding in on itself would definitely be killed, how could he just walk away unharmed from an incident like that especially when he was in the centre of it all, makes no sense, so maybe the alternate time theory is true in some way and this is him somehow coming back to the island, still i don’t see how that explains future events which he sees have occurred on the island, such as charley being dying!
Comment by nickk — April 25, 2007 @ 5:17 am
that was “charley dying”,and also how is it that all his clothes were removed but there wasn’t a scratch on him
Comment by nickk — April 25, 2007 @ 5:20 am
going back to someones comment by the way about crazy theories about the others crashing a plane into the ocean to cover it up, how is tha possibly more crazy than an alternate parrallel universe theory, one can really be done the latter can not
Comment by nickk — April 25, 2007 @ 5:33 am
For some reason, there has never been any interaction between the Others and Desmond that has been seen anyway. There must be a reason for this.
Comment by Alan — April 25, 2007 @ 5:35 am
See, for me I usually don’t believe any spoilers until I actually see it on screen. I knew once we saw Naomi for the first time, that she was obviously gonna share some light on 815. As to what she says, I’m going with the “three years ago” theory, as that would be a HUGE twist no doubt..
Comment by Herb — April 25, 2007 @ 6:02 am
The alternate timeline theory might be interesting for us, but it isn’t “TV friendly.” Think about it. Casual viewers of LOST, which make up most of it’s viewer base, won’t be able to wrap their heads around an alternate timeline plot device. We are okay with it, but we are also the viewers who use our free time to decode episodes and even take part in an alternate reality game to just gather some small tid bits about the shows universe. The alternate timeline theory is not something LOST would pull, it wouldn’t fit for it’s casual viewers.
Comment by Kyle — April 25, 2007 @ 9:56 am
Kyle,
I have to disagree. ‘Time travel’ and ‘alternative universes’ are part of the basic grammar of genre story-telling these days, and anyone who’s ever switched on a television or been to the movies will get the gist.
As I’ve suggested in another post, it’s the NON-time travel/alternative universe theories which would be too convoluted for the casual viewer. (The Others - or someone - finding the wreckage underwater and moving it? Come on …) The alternative universe theory is pretty straightforward in comparison!
Comment by Jem — April 25, 2007 @ 11:16 am
I’m with you 100% Jem. Another point here is that alternate universes/planes of existence and time travel are sort of holy grails for the scientific community. Not only have they never been disproven, but they’ve been hypothesized for years as being quite real. It would seem that a lot of people in the know feel like these things could be very, very possible…
Comment by cap10tripps — April 25, 2007 @ 12:13 pm
Jem,
I agree with you and never thought for a moment that they moved wrekage or crashed a plane. I think they never found the plane and after some time declared everyone as dead. My problem with the time travel alternate universe theory is how do you send someone to look in another universe? If the plane crashed and everyone died in Universe A then no one would be out looking for Universe A survivors and Happen to run into Universe B survivors right? or am I missing the Point. Can you watch TV from One alternate universe to another? Plus the BoSox would never win a would series in 2 seperate universes…there is no way
Comment by Kyle — April 25, 2007 @ 1:01 pm
Kyle,
No doubt they can provide some sci-fi explanation for Naomi’s ability to move from one universe to another. If you can have parallel universes in the show at all, then surely you can have trans-dimensional movement too, if that’s what you want. It seems a little silly to say, ‘Okay, I accept parallel universes. But moving from one to another? Now THAT’s crazy!’
I like your idea about them finding the wreckage and declaring everyone dead, but it seems a little conservative for Lost. You have to remember that, Lost being the show it is, we’re probably going to have to wait another half a season or so for any further exploration of Naomi’s revelations. I can’t really imagine an episode in which, after nearly a year of waiting, we’re finally told that (gasp!) THEY FOUND THE WRECKAGE AND IN THE ABSENCE OF ANY EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY DECLARED EVERYONE DEAD! It just wouldn’t pack much of a punch, would it?
Comment by Jem — April 25, 2007 @ 1:22 pm
(Sorry Kyle, your idea was that they DIDN’T find the wreckage and declared everyone dead, and not that they DID. My mistake. Still, my point still stands.)
Comment by Jem — April 25, 2007 @ 1:25 pm
You were right! She said at the end they found the plane and there were no survivors. I’m really wondering now how they will explain that!
Comment by Mike — April 25, 2007 @ 8:35 pm
I love good story telling, mystery, science fiction, and interesting characters.
Four decades of science fiction novels and movies have taught me that time travel (now known as alternate time lines) is a device often misused by lazy writers because it makes anything possible. Even impossible paradoxes.
I will nevertheless watch every minute of every remaining episode this season expecting the writers to deliver what they have done so far, a riveting story. If the story ending is a cheap lazy trick though I’m afraid my head will explode.
Comment by Lee — April 26, 2007 @ 2:07 am
It’s a distraction. She’s delirious. Remember Ben and the gang are coming back. The Others are doing evil work. Weird cancer treatments, weird fertility. Kidnaping. If they can make a man pregnant. If they can cure cancer and perfect fertility regimes they can run the world. Ruling the world via a master race. But the work must be kept secret. The biggest info wasn’t from some wacky woman in a parachute, it was that the dying moms were kept in a vault ! In a vault!
Secret locations. The BUNKERS. Unlimited funds. Submarines. Perfect isolation. Precise plans. Branding dissidents. It all points to Nazis. Ben struts and acts and manages like Hitler’s Grandson. And if Juliet knows that, then yes she would be killed if she told it to the torturer.
In TV Time Travel is too easy, it’s cheating. Escaped Nazis decendants in hiding—that could be real. Remember there were some real old people in Juliet’s book club.
Comment by walter — April 26, 2007 @ 7:19 am
The others couldn’t know that the plane was coming. Remember on that one flashback, when ben was talking to juliet, right after the plane crashed, ben ran outside and told 2 people to go investigate. so they didn’t drag parts of the plane into the island, and they didn’t know it was coming.
Comment by theorie — April 26, 2007 @ 9:08 pm
HAHAAHA TRHE BOSOX COULDNT WIN IN 2 UNIVERSE’S.. HAHA THAT IS THE BEST THING I HAVE EVER HEARD ON THIS SITE HAHAHA….
Comment by themachine — April 27, 2007 @ 11:07 am
In my opinion i think, rather then the others creating a plane and sending it off to be found after the real one had crashed, what if the other had a ‘fake’ plane made before, and everything was staged, if the others are so ‘powerful’ how do we know the ‘losties’ didnt get on a flight that they thought was 815, but it wasn’t, what if there flight was a replica of the flight 815, and the real 815 flight coincidentally crashed near sydney, yes it sounds far fetched, but theres a cloud of smoke that kills people lol,
Or if its going to be a obvious plot, then they all dies neer sydney and are blatently in heaven/hell. But im douting that theory.
Comment by Brad — May 6, 2008 @ 10:48 am