LOST - The Great Jacob Debate
The recent rumor over the casting of Ron Perlman as Jacob (which has been confirmed completely and utterly false) sparked a lot of conversation with some interesting implications. How sure can we be that Jacob is even a human being? What do you think? Is Jacob animal, mineral, or vegetable?
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Correct me if I’m wrong here, but didn’t Darlton or someone else credible already state that Jacob will be someone we have never seen before?
Comment by RedStarRevolution — April 22, 2007 @ 4:03 pm
We are all blind… Jacob is Vincent the dog!
Comment by adrian — April 22, 2007 @ 4:03 pm
I dont think they (darlton) speak as technically as we do. So by them saying it will be someone we havn’t seen before wouldn’t entirely rule out “someone” or “something” IMO.
Comment by Dr. Nope — April 22, 2007 @ 4:07 pm
Darlton didn’t say that Jacob would be someone we’d never seen before - just that His identity would be shocking and that He is not Billy Dee Williams. They sidestepped the question.
Given that the title of the episode is “The Man Behind the Curtain”, I suspect that we should consider the possibility that Jacob doesn’t exist at all. He could very well be a figurehead or sorts. Or if a real person, than someone who isn’t *really* the leader. Ben - the man behind the curtain - would be the real power, but he would have Jacob set up as a supposed superior. ‘Course, I’m also partial to the theory that Jacob is Ben’s father, so maybe not. (Unless Jacob the father retired but maintained figurehead status. That would allow for both theories.)
Anyway, I voted that Jacob - whoever he is - is someone we’ve seen before. Because Mr. LaShade is the Cobra. But I don’t think it’s someone like Jack or Locke or anything. Just someone we met and overlooked. Maybe somoene from a flashback.
Comment by S. A. Bonasi — April 22, 2007 @ 4:15 pm
What about that weird guy who told Claire to go to Australia and who was later seen in an episode with Eko?? This is definitely someone important for the mythology of the show. What do you think??
Comment by Kapa — April 22, 2007 @ 4:46 pm
I think it’s starting to look like there is no Jacob, at least not alive on the island. If the others moved based on Locke’s ideas for Ben’s benefit, would Jacob have a hand on the decision.
With all Ben’s deception, I think that Jacob is just a creation that he uses to control people and give them faith (”Jacob will take care of it personally in response to the cancer that Rachel may not have had).
Perhaps Jacob was someone who once lived but is now gone and Ben now uses him a figure, but I certainly don’t belive Jacob is controlling Ben.
Comment by Stan — April 22, 2007 @ 4:48 pm
They were being sarcastic when they said ‘that would be shocking’, refering to Billy Dee Williams being Jacob.
Comment by Stev — April 22, 2007 @ 4:50 pm
I say the four-toed statue is of Jacob.
Comment by Dusk — April 22, 2007 @ 4:51 pm
Jacob is a computer. Probably meant like J.A.C.O.B.
Comment by homermoose — April 22, 2007 @ 5:02 pm
Jacob’s a person and isn’t Ben. Remember the exchange between Ben and Juliet a few eps back, where Ben told Juliet that Jacob himself would heal her sister, unless she didn’t trust in Jacob? I find it very, very hard to believe that an educated newcomer like Juliet could be duped into putting faith into this mystery person no one ever sees. Her only interest in whatever the hell the Others are up to is trying to fulfill her (seemingly continually changing, poor woman!) obligation so that she can get off the island and go home.
Beyond saying he’s a real person, I’ll go as far to suggest that “The Man Behind the Curtain” is in reference to an act or illusion staged by Jacob himself to instill faith and/or fear of him into the Others. Remember, in The Wizard of Oz, the ruse wasn’t that there was no Wizard, but rather, that the Wizard just wasn’t as powerful and terrifying as he led everyone to believe. I’m guessing this is the same thing here: Jacob seems like some magnificent partriarch with great powers and/or knowledge, but there’s a more down-to-earth explanation behind it all. He probably pretends to be in command of the island’s nutsy powers when he only has a better understanding of them than most.
Comment by Richard Lennox — April 22, 2007 @ 5:11 pm
Ben will tell Locke that Jacob is behind the curtain. Locke will pull the curtain open and be looking into a mirror. This will set up the finale: Through the Looking Glass.
Comment by gusteaux — April 22, 2007 @ 5:25 pm
Jacob is dead and Bens pretending hes a live like Weekend at Bernie’s
Comment by Driver — April 22, 2007 @ 5:26 pm
Driver wins the contest. We can all go home now.
Comment by Richard Lennox — April 22, 2007 @ 5:33 pm
None of the Above! He/It/She doesn’t exist. :=)
Comment by iowalost815 — April 22, 2007 @ 5:44 pm
We might find out if he exists in 2 weeks. There are some spoilers out there that may hint to Jacob being real.
Didn’t someone in authority say recently that the mysterious Jacob may have winked in season 1?
I am thinking, or maybe dreaming, that it is Bruce Greenwood reprising his role as Thomas Vail’s mysterious twin brother.
Comment by TabulaRasa — April 22, 2007 @ 7:01 pm
I agree with the sentiment that Jacob does not exist, I think that it is just Ben hoodwinking the Others into believing there is some divine entity on the island. When we first met Ben, he was known to us as “Henry Gale”, an allusion to the Wizard of Oz. Now, we know that the episode’s name is “The Man Behind the Curtain”. This would suggest to me that it is nothing more than Ben “Behind the Curtain”, fooling the Others into listening to him.
Comment by Nate — April 22, 2007 @ 7:27 pm
You can carry the Wonderful Wizard of Oz analogy pretty far.
1. Oz is a mysterious place of unknown location 2. You can only get there by accident.
3. Everyone in Oz was related to someone in the real world. (ie: the wizard was prof marvel, Miss Gulch was The Wicked Witch of the West)
You can carry this further, but I’m too distracted by the NBA playoffs.
last point for this post: the wizard had no real power, the power always existed with those that were looking for it. The Lion did have courage, the Scarecrow was wise, the Tinman was caring, and Dorothy always had the power to will herself back home.
Comment by TabulaRasa — April 22, 2007 @ 8:03 pm
this is my first time commenting on this site. awesome place, I get a lot of info.
I had a theory tonight while I was doing nothing at work. Okay so the last episode of the season is definately jack-centric, and it has been stated this episode has a huge, island shaking twist that will change everyones perspective, supposedly.
my theory, and this is definately up for conformation and/or debate, is that what if the third group (which of course there might not actually be), of the ‘other’ “others”, might be the Dharma Initiative, forced to retreat way underground. Dharma Initiative discovered the islands power and wants it to benefit mankind. however, certain figures like Ben or Jacob wanted to protect this valuable resource of the island, keep it a secret. so they ursurped the Dharma Initiative and set up a company called Mittelos to be their eyes and ears on the rest of the world.
Dharma vs. Mittelos.
anyway, my theory on this huge twist is that at some point which we will see in jacks flashback is that the Dharma Initiative come to jack with a proposition; to get as close as possible to Ben and overthrow the Others, and in trade they would let Jack study these “healing” artifacts or just healing properties of the island. maybe Dharma knows that ben is very manipulative, and would see an uprising from very far away, unless the Initiative set up an elaborate scheme for a spinal surgeon to “fall out of the sky.” so basically it’s that jack knows about everything and everyone, and he is actually with the Losties, but has even more inside intel than even the Others. sorry if this is long-winded and i’m sure it is full of holes but maybe it could be something tangible?
Comment by nick — April 22, 2007 @ 8:39 pm
It’d be one hell of a secret for Jack to keep, Nick. I don’t think he’s strong enough to do it.
Still, your thoughts are interesting. I don’t think there are DHARMA remnants that have gone all Morlock on us, but I *could* see a long-existing evil underneath everything that the Others (I’m effing DYING to find out what the hell they call themselves so we can stop using ‘Others’!) have been fighting for hundreds of years (centuries?) that ensnared DHARMA personnel as well as Magnus Hanso and various other corrupt visitors over the years…
Comment by Richard Lennox — April 22, 2007 @ 8:55 pm
Bingo Richard Lennox, Jacob is a person who has everyone believing that he has great powers when he probably doesnt really. That is most likely why most of the Others do not see him, if he was around them too much he would lose his mysterious side and they might begin to realize he isnt all that great.
Comment by vahan solar — April 22, 2007 @ 9:21 pm
I’ve thought for some time that Jacob would be Jack. The fact that he wasn’t on Jacob’s list may be that he is in fact Jacob. “He walks among us, but is not one of us.” This may be a hint that he is not what he has appeared to be thus far. Coupled with the readings of being a great leader, the episode with Bai Ling may have given us some big hints.
Now the one who makes the most sense to me is Dr. Marvin Candle. We know Christian had gotten info regarding Claire’s mom from a higher up and Ben says to Juliet, “Jacob said he would heal her (Rachel).” This would indicate that Jacob is a very important figure in the medical field in the outside world. It would also be a huge twist, as we would know that the others are in fact DHARMA and their recruits. This would indicate that they have purged the natives who may very well be mystical in nature (ancient order of fate/time mongers). The question would still remain (and be reopened in a big way) of who are the good guys???
Comment by cap10tripps — April 22, 2007 @ 10:06 pm
Cap, I would be absolutely ecstatic if it were Dr. Marvin Candle!
Comment by docarzt — April 22, 2007 @ 10:40 pm
I think Jacob is a person, personally. whether he’s someone we’ve met or not, I don’t know. but given the “man behind the curtain” title, I would think that either he’s someone we know already who is hiding behind a disguise/alias/ruse and isn’t who they say they are (alas, the “curtain”), or someone we don’t know thats been playing his cards from behind the scenes……
Comment by Nexus — April 22, 2007 @ 10:44 pm
I’m still sticking with the idea that Jack is Jacob. Why? Jack brought Charlie back to life when he was dead. Since Desmonds new found precognitive ideas have primarily been about Charlie’s impending death it lead me to believe that this plays more than a significant role in the Season Finale. Season one, the discovery of the hatch around the mid-point leads to the eventual opening of the hatch and Walt being upducted. Season Two, the capture of Ben leads to an exchange and the Island being seen. Season three…the only person that can save Charlie is the person that brought him back to life. What is Jack’s motto? “I can fix this.” All signs point to Jack.
Comment by Merlboroman — April 22, 2007 @ 10:54 pm
So the Others would violently tranquilize their leader and force him to perform surgery, especially when it’s clear how much they fear him and his wrath? Sorry Merlboroman, I don’t see this panning out at all.
Comment by Richard Lennox — April 22, 2007 @ 11:34 pm
Well, okay…maybe if he’s from the future and *told* them to do it. But that’d be the worst thing since John Locke uttered, “We’re puppets! Puppets on strings!” in the season 2 finale…
Comment by Richard Lennox — April 23, 2007 @ 12:14 am
Has anyone taken a good look at Jack’s new tatoo’s? Are there screen shots of them up anywhere? I noticed they flashed them again in Catch-22 and I’m convinced that if we can figure out what they are/mean, it will give us a huge clue about the finale.
Comment by Chad — April 23, 2007 @ 12:15 am
Locke is a cat, everything makes sense that way
Comment by Dan — April 23, 2007 @ 2:08 am
Jacob could be a memorial plate?
The other said he or she not in the Jacob’s List. Since one photo showing the Others looking a monument/structure and camping around it. It where they have all the history of the survivor.
Jacob == J.A.C.O.B
Comment by Chris — April 23, 2007 @ 2:47 am
I have a Jacob = Dr. Marvin Candle theory here:
http://sabonasi.livejournal.com/294613.html
Probably wrong, but still fun to theorize.
Comment by S. A. Bonasi — April 23, 2007 @ 4:06 am
Pay attention when Ben talks about Jacob. Ben often put gender to Jacob using “He, Him.” Quite odd to put gender to a statue, computer, etc. I’m sure Jacob is a person.
Comment by Dale — April 23, 2007 @ 5:01 am
There is already strong support for Ben making up Jacob(never existed), or perpetuating (he is long since dead) the idea of Jacob with the curing of Rachel’s cancer.
Most likely, the cancer NEVER returned. That was Ben’s chart showing the early stages of his cancer. He planted the idea that Jacob would cure Rachel and then recorded the scene of Rachel and Julien. All of this to purchase Juliet’s loyalty. Again, Rachel’s cancer never returned.
Comment by TabulaRasa — April 23, 2007 @ 6:00 am
Jacob is Alvar Hanso. Period.
The hostiles are Mittleworks crew that perverted Hanso’s research.
Comment by havoc1922 — April 23, 2007 @ 6:45 am
ok My theory (and prolly total bunk) Charlie is Jacob.Or someone pertending to be Charlie is Jacob. Think about this Charlie was a member of a 1 hit wonder band, but no one seemed to recgonise him not even hurley the music afficendo. when Eathen took claire he took charlie too, what if charlie just went with them to help out and cover land faster, then hung himself in a tree to make a distraction knowing he wouldnt die because jack was close enough behind him. Then when the hatch blew he managed to “magic box” his way out which is now causing fate to try to kill him. Hence he is Humes irony as Desmond can never really save him him but Charlie is the one who can ultimatly save the losties ( again irony Charlie Singing wonderwall “cause maybe your gonna be the one that saves me”
Also would be intresting if one of Charlies ancestors was a member of Jernemo Jackson
Comment by Nemesise1977 — April 23, 2007 @ 6:57 am
Jacob could also be Charles Widmore. In last season’s finale he told Desmond he had two boxes for him: one with his past and one with his future. He was behind the race that brought Desmond to the island. His daughter Penny, to this point, is the only one who has found the island on purpose and not by accident. I also wonder if Radzinsky is really dead. Kelvin said he had a “photographic memory” when making the map on the blast door(Smokey sure does seem to rely on photos a lot). How could he have known so much about the island to make the map in the first place?
Comment by bdub — April 23, 2007 @ 7:21 am
Widmore… valid, I keep wondering how Penny knew what to look for - Des goes missing on a boat ‘oh, I know how to find him, I’ll look for a huge EM incident’ - like you do!
Comment by wangolini — April 23, 2007 @ 7:46 am
Marvin Candle has already lied about his name at least once. Or maybe it’s Thomas Mittelwerk…I know that the Lost Experience hasn’t really been tied into whats going on on the island. But consider that the Others are Mittelos employees, and Mittelos sounds suspiciously like Mittelwerk. Wouldn’t all the Lost geeks, myself included, who’ve spent so much time absorbing the Lost universe consider this revelation to be shocking? The internets would be abuzz with Lost fans geeking out!
Comment by Higdon — April 23, 2007 @ 8:27 am
I guess I should have read the previous comments because it appears a few others have this theory. You know what they say, if more than one person puts it on the internet, it must be true.
Comment by Higdon — April 23, 2007 @ 8:32 am
I’m calling it right now - Jacob is Locke’s Dad.
Why else would he be on the island? He’s a known conman and the others have proven over time that they are great con men (con people??) - Fake beards and clothing when we first met them, fake door on the beach, Ethan and Goodwin pretending to be 815 survivors, Ben making out to be Henry Gale, lying about Juliette’s sister dying, lying to Sawyer about the chest implant. All constant plays and deceptions.
I just don’t see any other reason for him to be on the island.
I know it’s slightly off topic, but when are they ging to get around to settling the one remaining mystery around the Swan, namely this. At some point someone had to work out that there was an anomaly which needed to be bled every 108 minutes. Then they built a station and a mechanism in which to do this. How did they now they had 108 minutes? How did the anomaly develop and how the hell do you build something as complicated as the Swan and the failsafe in 108 minutes? It’s making my head hurt.
Comment by Leeps — April 23, 2007 @ 9:10 am
Leeps,
Regarding Swan Station: there wasn’t a problem until *after* Swan Station was already constructed. That’s when the Incident occurred, at which point they quickly put in a mechanism that could regulate the discharges.
Comment by S. A. Bonasi — April 23, 2007 @ 10:09 am
Jacob is Linderman off Heroes… Both have healing power…Munson was in Sawyers flashback is also Linderman’s curator, coincidence…
Comment by anbronty — April 23, 2007 @ 10:20 am
Leeps, Bonsai:
You guys are both off a little. Think of the swan as the Hoover dam or something. There is no huge surge of water before it is in place, but it acts as a giant capacitor building up energy and releasing it. So the energy is only dangerous after it is built when large amounts of it can be released all at once. The swan was built to study the magnetic anomaly and probably to learn how to generate power from it. Dharma had the means to store and release the energy from the anomoly but the “incident” must have caused the output to increase somehow requiring it to be released every 108 minutes. Realizing how dangerous the anomaly was, they built the protocol to ensure that the button was always pressed. My theory is that the incident occured when three of the natives of the island fell into the anomoly and their minds melded with the magnetism creating the smoke monster cerebrus.
Comment by Charli — April 23, 2007 @ 10:31 am
I think the obvious “man behind the curtain” is Ben (Henry Gale), but what if the term has another (less obvious) subject. “Candle” and “Wickman” are obvious fake names. The man behind the curtain could be referring to the good doctor as being much more important than an orientation film narrator. It could even point him towards being Hanso as well.
Another thought, a literal resemblance to “The Wizard of Oz” would make Jacob as being the real Henry Gale. Doc’s “bad twin” theory could make a real creepy appearance here. What if Henry Gale is a great and powerful man who came to the island and took over. He eventually takes his duplicate (Ben) from the box to be his eyes and ears. TPTB have made a recent statement regarding how much we should look at Ben being “born” on the island. Maybe there is a whole story that lies underneath (within the ?). I recall someone noting what looked to be duplicates walking around Otherton. Whatever it may be, we’re just scratching the surface here…
Comment by cap10tripps — April 23, 2007 @ 10:55 am
Cap, I like the theory but I believe that the Losties dug up the “real” Henry Gale when they found the balloon. I also believe that he was African-American on his driver’s license. It is possible that Ben put the body and fake ID there but that doesn’t seem to make sense at this point. I’m sticking to my Widmore theory for now.
Comment by bdub — April 23, 2007 @ 11:13 am
maybe “Smokie” is Jacob. Ron Pearlman could just be playing its human form. Maybe Smokie is a composite of all that is left of DHARMA workers. Along the lines of what Charli said up there. The workers studying the magnetic anomoly were some how all fused together and formed the smoke being. Just a thought.
Comment by Brian — April 23, 2007 @ 11:20 am
Cap -
The problem with carrying Wizard of Oz too far is “Henrey Gale” was Dorothy’s uncle and did not have a counterpart in Oz. He most certainly was not the Wizard. The wizard was Professor Marvel, a hokey salesman.
Comment by TabulaRasa — April 23, 2007 @ 11:22 am
I agree with those who feel that Jacob is someone who Ben made up to control the Others in a quasi-religious manner. When Ben was talking to Juliet about curing Rachel first he says “I” will make sure she is cured and then he changed I to Jacob will do it. Maybe Juliet’s secret is that she is on to Ben and is only pretending to go along with it. She is setting a trap for him. The last shot of her in “One of Us” when she tightens the rope makes me feel she is closing in on her intended prey. I think it is Ben not the losties she is after. I also think that “him” is not Jacob but one of the losties who because of the timelines has come there on a mission and there is a legend or story that someone would come and alter the their timeline to save the future.Hence the question “Are you HIM?” I think it is either Jack, Locke or Charlie.
Comment by H20 — April 23, 2007 @ 12:05 pm
The real press release for Man Behind the Curtain is out….and no actors are listed as playing Jacob at all. So if Jacob is appearing in that ep, and it’s not Ben, then the actor playing him is likely to be a super secret surprise- so he may be a pretty well known one.
Comment by robert — April 23, 2007 @ 12:11 pm
What if Jacob isn’t a person so much as an office or position that can be passed down, held by various people–like the Princess Bride’s Dread Pirate Roberts?
Comment by Tim J. — April 23, 2007 @ 12:19 pm
Yeah, I think Jacob is either Roger, Friendly, Mikhail, or Ben.
Comment by Muscle_Bob_Buff_Pants — April 23, 2007 @ 12:27 pm
Tabula, I guess I was referring to Henry Gale as being a “Wizard of Oz” character when saying he could be the man behind the curtain. I don’t subscribe to that theory. Sometimes I like to throw things out there to see what sticks. I’m inclined to believe (right now) that Jacob is either Jack or Dr. Marvin Candle…
Comment by cap10tripps — April 23, 2007 @ 12:27 pm
dunno if anyones said this before, but what if jacob was smokey? and what if other people were smokey, too? …i dont know how serious im being there, but maybe a little
Comment by mw — April 23, 2007 @ 12:34 pm
Let me throw this into the fray. How about Ben using a mythology of Jacob? A mythology that exists on the island that the Others know about. He is a real person that directed events for a time but is no longer on the island.
Ben has been invoking his name to maintain control, but Jacob has been absent from them. The crash of 815 is the return of Jacob. This gives Jacob an opportunity to anonymously see what Ben and the others are doing and give him the opportunity to set things right.
Comment by TabulaRasa — April 23, 2007 @ 12:37 pm
Actually what if they are pulling a Primal Fear?
What if Jacob is pretending to be Ben Linus….and not the other way around?
Comment by Muscle_Bob_Buff_Pants — April 23, 2007 @ 12:49 pm
There’s been some allusion to Ben being “born on the island” and to take that with a grain of salt. Born in the sense that we’ve been thinking may not be true. I’m pushing the “re-born” angle.
And if you can position birth as something other than coming directly from the womb, then you can position death as something other than ceasing to breath.
Therefore it is my contention that Christian Shepard is “dead” but has resumed his title as Jacob. His “death” allowed Jack to stand alone, on his own two feet and no longer live in his father’s shadow.
Which is why Jack is marked as he who walks among us but is not one of us. His ability as a surgeon to heal is in direct decendance to Christian Shepard, who may or may not have cured Rachel.
Comment by El Prez — April 23, 2007 @ 12:59 pm
I made a post in the Lost Theories Forum last week about this. I think Jacob is Smokie. We’ve seen Smokie take human form already–Yemi for sure, maybe the horse, maybe Jack’s dad, maybe Locke’s dad. We’ve seen Smokie “scan” people on the island, somehow showing them their own lives when they look into him (Eko for sure, maybe Juliet and Locke too. It shows that Smokie has serious knowledge of these people. I think that explains how the Others know about Sawyer’s murder the night before the flight–something they couldn’t have gleaned from newspapers et al.
We saw Smokie act like a dumb animal when he chased Kate and Juliet, growling and roaring and not smart enough to go over the sonic fence even though we’ve seen him rise tall before. And we know he is more cunning in the way that he toyed with Eko before killing him. These are all Others-like traits. Mindfuck and then murder.
Ben often speaks of Jacob in reverent, possibly religious terms–he questioned Juliet’s “faith” in Jacob, for instance. So it might stand to reason that Ben serves Jacob as a minion or worshiper, someone who believes in the (supernatural) power of Jacob.
“Leviathan” means “demon” in the biblical sense. “Leviathan” is also the title of Thomas Hobbes most famous work–Hobbes is the one philosopher whose ideas have everything to do with the island but whose name hasn’t come up yet. I think Smokie is a leviathan, and I think he takes the form of Jacob, and Ben answers to Jacob.
Comment by pgwp — April 23, 2007 @ 1:24 pm
haha w00 annother beliver! dunno about leviathan, though, as thats generally held to be a sea monster unless my monsters-knoledge is letting me down there, but at any rate yeah i think theres a good chance that smokie has taken on a bunch of forms before, though maybe ben doesnt know that jacob is smokey.
to be honest, i reckon a great part of islands mystery as a whole will be resolved when we find out about smokey, and that it [smokey] plays a role simillar to that of ..er…was it Thoth that weighed your heart after you died in egyptian mythology? i think it was thoth…and if your heart weighed more than a feather (in other words, if you were an arse in life and unrepentant and whatnot), then he fed it to a lizard-dog-monster….although i think in this case the writers have lumped christian and egyptian together, maybe, to produce a Smokey monster thing (lizard-monster-dog sold seperately).
or maybe the whole hatch thing acted as a smokey-controller/Anit-Smokey device, and when it went boom, smokey started to get more free reign over the island? after all, he didnt…er..do that much before the hatch imploded/exploded etc, whereas now he keeps threatening to nail folks left right and centre…
That would fit in with the whole theme of Black & White that i remember reading about back in the day (start of S2)….
hmm…
Comment by mw — April 23, 2007 @ 1:42 pm
Jacob is Hanso.
Or Widmore.
One of them.
Talk amongst yourselves.
Comment by MikerMan — April 23, 2007 @ 1:42 pm
I am willing to sit back and be surprised. I just can’t figure out this Jacob thing.
*However*, we have been given some major hints. “Henry Gale”, although he wasn’t the same as Professor Marvel in OZ. The balloon and the name are too obvious a reference.
And the title (”Man Behind the Curtain”) has to refer to the whole wonderful wizard thing.
So my bet is that it’s Ben. Or Ben’s twin. Or Ben from another timeline. Or whatever …..
I totally forgot about the “are you HIM?” thing though.
Do you think we’ll hear the line “What did one snowman say to another” in this upcoming episode?? That’s got to pay off again somehow, doncha think?
Cool, cool stuff.
Comment by Matt — April 23, 2007 @ 2:12 pm
MW, I find it interesting the term lizard dog. Cerberus was a 3 headed dog with the tail of a serpent. Very, very interesting *stroking beard*. I have to believe that the reveal of Jacob will open more questions (while answering a big one). This is the m/o of LOST. I’m leaning towards “One Arm” Candle, because I believe so many more questions of what the hell is really going on will be opened…
Comment by cap10tripps — April 23, 2007 @ 2:15 pm
Jacob is none other than our own Alvar Hanso or it could be doctor Mark Whitman or Doctor marvin candle i think it could be anyone of those three.
Comment by lost815 — April 23, 2007 @ 2:19 pm
Remember Locke tells Des that he is him. It was seemingly a ruse, but maybe he was serious. He also knew the answer to the snowman question. Someone posted that a curtain would be opened for Locke to see Jacob and there would be a mirror. Pretty cool in a creepy LOST sort of way…
Comment by cap10tripps — April 23, 2007 @ 2:21 pm
Lost815, maybe Jacob is all three of them (all one person)…
Comment by cap10tripps — April 23, 2007 @ 2:22 pm
Just in case it’s lost somewhere… Marvin Candle as Jacob would be soooooo awesome.
Comment by docarzt — April 23, 2007 @ 2:25 pm
I think I have it! Sharpening what I posted earlier. The “Jacob” of the others is not the real Jacob. He is the doppelganger of the real Jacob.
The real Jacob is one of the Losties. He may or may not know his role in the larger scheme of the island. I still think it is Locke. The fake-Jacob is trying to keep the real Jacob from knowing who or what he is.
It is a reverse of the Biblical story. Jacob posed as Esau to gain his fathers blessing. Isaac thought that he was blessing Esau when in fact he was blessing Jacob.
In the lost-verse, it is Esau posing as Jacob.
Comment by TabulaRasa — April 23, 2007 @ 2:31 pm
Cap10:
That was I who posted the “Locke will pull the curtain and be looking into a mirror (setting up the finale “Through the Looking Glass”) comment. Locke did answer, “yes”, when Desmond asked, “are you HIM”, but he did NOT know the answer to the, “what did one snowman say to the second snowman,” (smells like carrots)as he was bluffing to gain Des’s trust. I do believe that Locke is Jacob. And LOST often makes me contenplatively stroke my beard too.
Comment by gusteaux — April 23, 2007 @ 2:35 pm
And, Tabula, I love the reverse Jacob/Esau theory.
Comment by gusteaux — April 23, 2007 @ 2:38 pm
aaah doc!!!
abcmedianet.com has gone on a MAY SWEEPS RAMPAGE and has released info about EVERY upcoming episode excluding the finale!
Comment by BERF — April 23, 2007 @ 2:40 pm
Dark has posted the guest cast list for The Man Behind the Curtain. Roger’s last name is LINUS! Ben’s dad? Brother?
Comment by gusteaux — April 23, 2007 @ 2:44 pm
jacob is goign to be just like a “jesus” type historical figure. “do you not believe in jesus”, “jesus will cure you”, “have faith”. it will be something along those lines, and ben is using (manipulating, perhaps like other religions) this for him to attain (and retain) his personal power.
same ol’ crap, different spin. jacob == jesus like dogmatic person/entity….perhaps with a more sci fi bent where ben has some sort of “box” to drum up “magic” to attest to the “power of jesus”, uh, i mean jacob….
Comment by foo — April 23, 2007 @ 3:16 pm
If ther rumors of Jack’s demise in the season finale are true, what would it mean if Jack were somehow brought back, like Charlie? Jack pulls a Jesus and is thus reborn as Jacob. The constant flashbacks as well as the new found “altering” time line ability of Desmond will eventually come into play at explaining how Jack could be Jacob. If Locke is responsible for his death and a number of 815ers join him, then it’s possible that the reborn Jack/Jacob isn’t as “forgiving” anymore. Keep in mind Jack has never been able to forgive his father. How would Jack respond to having the people he once led (815ers) turn on him? And why wouldn’t they? When Juliet is found out who are the 815ers going to blame? Again, Jacob = Jack (note Jacob was forced to be a shepherd for Rachel’s father in order to marry her…Jack Shepherd = Jacob).
Comment by MerlboroMan — April 23, 2007 @ 3:23 pm
oh, doc.
u owe me.
thetailsection is really the only lost site that actually makes it a mission to keep up and frequently update, besides buddytv.
u write on both. way to go haha.
Comment by BERF — April 23, 2007 @ 3:23 pm
Tabula, I love the reverse Jacob/Esau theory. A point here may be Locke’s ability to walk. Locke’s duplicate (I believe the box is an alternate plane of existence) is posing as Locke. Locke can walk, because he is not Locke (at least not Locke from the 815ers).
Gusteaux, I guess I have my memories mixed up. I thought Locke answered the snowman question a little later once things were more settled with Des in the hatch.
Doc, Candle makes the most sense to me in the LOST scheme of things. I’m interested to know why you would love to see that as much as you do. By the way “The Great Jacob Debate” has my vote for best subject ever in a sea of thought provoking discussions…
Comment by cap10tripps — April 23, 2007 @ 3:47 pm
Remember that the symbols in the Swan meant ‘The Underworld’?
Call me crazy, but……..
What if Jacob is Satan?
I know that this is WAY out there, but how cool would that be?
Think about it. The island is a ‘gateway’ to hell. Not pergatory, but an actual place, on the earth, where there is a gateway into hell. Kinda like ‘The Exorcist: The Beginning. The place where Satan fell to earth after God threw him out of heaven is the gateway to hell. The Swan was that exact spot. And pushing the button released all the energy/force building up. Besically, Dharma found this, and built the station to prevent hell from entering the world. Keeping the end times from happening. Remember? Desmond’s hatch buddy asked Des if he is willing to pull his finger out of the ‘damn’. And Damon and Carlton said that they all had no idea how srewed they all are by blowing the hatch. Now, the force holding hell back is gone, and that brings me to my last thought……….
What if the new ‘evil threat’ to be revealed are demons and fallen angels, escaping from hell? And while battling the Other’s and the Losties, the smoke monster is revealed to be the original ‘gate keeper’ of hell? And we get to watch Smokey pick of the demons? How FREAKIN cool would that be?
I know. I’m crazy.
Comment by AREM — April 23, 2007 @ 3:57 pm
hmm…didnt know cerebrus had a lizards tail…that makes it more interesting still…just to make sure we’re on the same page tho, i was talking about the egyptian heart-eating beast being lizardy, and the shock and interesting thing is that cerebrus had a lizards tail too, right? ill have to break out my copy of inferno and check up on that cerebrus thing lol…or was he in the annead..or both probably…anyways ill look in both lol.
i dont know about candle being jacob; seems like jacob should be somone or something alien (in the sense of being outside or foreign to what we know, rather than extra terrestrial lol) to dharma and to some extent the others…if only because jacob clearly didnt hold so much with dharma?
Comment by mw — April 23, 2007 @ 3:57 pm
Jacob is the Island, like in the old testament, Jacob is Israel…
Comment by rtd2 — April 23, 2007 @ 4:16 pm
MW, there’s a tattoo on my chest of Cerberus, so I’m fairly certain he had a serpent’s tail. I’ve been a big fan of “The Inferno” for years. I’ve always wanted to see a movie adaptation. I’d be ecstatic if this book turned out to be extremely relevant. That would mean there would be a Virgil, demons, King Minos, etc. Sadly, I don’t think we’ll be going too far in this direction. A point on this, Ms. Hawking is what I believe to be a metaphoric angel or fallen angel (depending on who the good guys are). She may either be trying to unleash the gates of hell or make sure they are maintained.
It is my belief that the box is an alternate plane of existence. It is a metaphoric hell full of trapped dark energy. Our world would be a metaphoric purgatory. It is a place of education and the furthering enlightenment. There is also a metaphoric heaven. This is a higher plane of existence. A place full of enlightened energy.
Back to the subject at hand. DHARMA is either the good guys or bad guys. They were either trying to prevent the eventual apocalypse by building the hatch, or they set forth the events that would lead to the fail safe being turned and hell being unleashed. This energy was not trapped before they got there. Either way the others (whoever they may be) believe Jacob to be a great man. He must have a method to his madness. The big overall question to me is who are the good guys? The answer to this will begin the end…
Comment by cap10tripps — April 23, 2007 @ 4:20 pm
In a recent interview I’m pretty sure that Michael Emerson stated that once we find out who Ben is going up against we will wish that he were even meaner than he has been thus far. This sure sounds like the Others are the “good” guys to me. I don’t trust Ben, but I trust Michael Emerson.
Comment by bdub — April 23, 2007 @ 4:57 pm
The Catholic church buried Limbo this week I figure Purgatory won’t be far behind then there goes your theory!;)http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070420/ts_nm/pope_limbo_dc
Comment by H20 — April 23, 2007 @ 5:01 pm
Well I guess it’s a good thing I don’t hold any creedence in religion. Seriously though, I believe that the religious undertones within the show are (and will continue to be) metaphoric. It goes along with the idea that religion explains things in a way to both teach lessons and prophesize, but the stories are open to interpretation. The problem with many religions is that they’ve evolved into cultish “this is absolute” paths. I think tptb are saying what if the stories were/are true, but in a completely different light than what religion shows you. For instance Jacob is not the biblical Jacob, but he may in fact have many similarities. The bible and other religious literature may have told stories that the people of the time could wrap their brains around (for whatever purpose). What if a lot of the stories were true, but just not how you were taught???
Comment by cap10tripps — April 23, 2007 @ 5:18 pm
On a side note, how funny is it that a religion would come out and say there’s no limbo. First no pre-marital sex, then no Caribean party games. That’s too much…
Comment by cap10tripps — April 23, 2007 @ 5:27 pm
if you listened to the last podcast it was stated that jacob is a person whom we have not yet met…
Comment by locke's legs — April 23, 2007 @ 5:32 pm
if you listened to the last podcast it was stated that jacob is a person whom we have not yet met…
Comment by locke's legs — April 23, 2007 @ 5:32 pm
locke’s legs -
The podcast said no such thing. They only confirmed rather cryptically that he is not Billy Dee Williams.
Comment by TabulaRasa — April 23, 2007 @ 5:56 pm
I’ve already posted this in another blog post, but reposting because it’s relevant…
“After failing to secure Locke, Ben must face the wrath of the mysterious Jacob. Flashback’s this time belong to Ben himself, or do they? We journey back to the days of Dharma to find some familiar faces that do not belong.”
^ Here’s my take:
We see flashbacks of Michael Emerson all episode and we think he’s Ben. The last flashback will see the character say something like - “I guess I’ll need to clone myself. Call him Ben.” and then someone says “Yes, Jacob.” BAM!
It’d fit because the flashbacks belong to the actor who plays Ben, but is the character Ben? No - it’s Jacob, fitting the “or do they?” question, as no, the flashbacks aren’t Ben’s flashbacks at all. And Ben has to face the wrath of his “father”, who is an even more evil version of Ben himself. Like the SUPERboss of the Others.
Comment by Andy Spark — April 24, 2007 @ 5:47 am
Andy, I mentioned earlier that Doc’s “bad twin” theory could make a creepy appearance here. I like your thoughts. It’s very plausible that Ben is a duplicate of Jacob. What do you think Doc???
Comment by cap10tripps — April 24, 2007 @ 10:44 am
Charli-
“My theory is that the incident occured when three of the natives of the island fell into the anomoly and their minds melded with the magnetism creating the smoke monster cerebrus.”
That has to be the absolute worst theory i have ever heard. u suck. please stop posting!
Comment by Damon Lindeloff — April 24, 2007 @ 12:04 pm
hahaha…. “Are you HIM?” was in refernce to are you the person who is replacing me..but i could be wrong…
Comment by themachine — April 24, 2007 @ 12:32 pm
My money is on Anthony Cooper, as a sort of L Ron Hubbard like con-man/spiritual leader.
Comment by Mark Buehner — April 24, 2007 @ 1:53 pm
What if Jacob was Richard Malkin - The psychic who convinced Claire to board 815?
Comment by 1miletogo — April 24, 2007 @ 2:32 pm
My vote goes to BDUB. Obviously, Charles Widmore is a sinister and powerful man of extraordinary means who would go bonkers at the idea of perpetuating his golden life via the island’s powers. Also has a eugenic side, Desmond not being good enough to ensure worthy offspring. So, one order of bizarre island research coming up!
Also, the conman theory sounds pretty good. The theme of people getting conned, the others conning, plus capturing the evil con man, plus Christian Shepherd and his dishonest behaviour etc. a lot turns around this concept. Interesting how Alex sees right through her so-called father, another con man. That’s what makes me so convinced that Oceanic Flight 815’s disappearance was covered up. Oops! wrong forum.
Anyhow, the others act like a cult, which is usually led by a charismatic and hypocritical con artist. So I figure that Ben and his father Jacob have been conning wealthy people to provide them with a cushy island paradise while they wave the specter of immortality, the cure for cancer, the creation of a master race and any number of other hokey pipedreams before their eyes. A truly good con has always got that kernel of truth that is used as a reference point to quell the skeptics. The island’s curative powers that always need a little more research before they are usable is a good place to start. Sometimes I think Lost is a 2000’s take on the ’90s fable, the X-files. “I want to believe” taken out of its UFO context and applied to the science/religion debate of our decade.
Comment by Odette — April 24, 2007 @ 3:05 pm
My theory is that none of these theories are correct, that would probably make my theory the strongest!
Comment by nick — April 24, 2007 @ 5:30 pm
odette, there is no science religion debate, you are either a mad man or a sane man lo!
Comment by nick — April 24, 2007 @ 5:34 pm
Nick your theory probably is the strongest.
Place your bets..
Ben- 5/2
Dr. Marvin Candle- 5/1
Jack- 7/1
Locke- 15/2
Christian- 8/1
Ben’s father/duplicate- 10/1
The island- 15/1
Kate- 25/1
Des-25/1
Ron Perlman- 100/1
docarzt- 5000/1
none of these- 2/5
Comment by cap10tripps — April 24, 2007 @ 5:46 pm
My head tells me to bet on Candle, but I’m a gambler. My dollar is on longshot Des…
Comment by cap10tripps — April 24, 2007 @ 5:50 pm
Let me throw a wild card in there..
Aaron- 35/1
Comment by cap10tripps — April 24, 2007 @ 6:12 pm
While I am holding firm on my Charles Widmore theory, here is a great/irrelevant play on words. I think that Jacob controls Smokey in some way. Well, where there’s smoke(or Smokey in this case) there’s fire. Where does fire come from? A Candle and a Wick(mund). I’d be totally fine if it’s him. But I still think it’s Widmore.
Comment by bdub — April 24, 2007 @ 7:51 pm
This is all a guess, of course …
But one thing I’ve been reflecting on is how Ben seems genuinely scared of Jacob. Ben has had a few lines that reveal this. I think he even said that Jacob would kill him in Season Two.
Anyway …. to my theory …
I have noticed how Ben seems to get away with horrible behavior by feeling comfortable that he did “good” things. Like how he insists to Juliet HE DID NOT LIE. HE IS NOT A LIER.
So that made me think ….
Could Jacob be a computer or something like it?
Jacob could be placated (and Ben not killed by Jacob) if Ben plays by the rules. And if Jacob sees Ben as NOT A LIER, then Ben has tricked Jacob.
I hope I’m explaining this well …
My point is that maybe Jacob, being a machine, is only capable of simple logic. Therefore, Ben can trick Jacob and still do what he needs to as long as Ben ‘technically’ stays a “good person”.
Comment by Matt — April 25, 2007 @ 7:03 am
Bdub, your points on Widmore make a lot of sense.
Widmore- 12/1
Comment by cap10tripps — April 25, 2007 @ 10:21 am
The psycic who sent clair to the island… his name is never said. However when Mr.Echo is sent to find out details about a girl who dies in austrailia in “?” in season 2 he is told by said psycic that he is a fraud. He said his job is to find things out about people… he also said “miracles dont happen, at least not in THIS world”… the psycic is Jacob.
Comment by mitch — April 27, 2007 @ 8:26 pm
Richard Alpert- 5/2
Comment by cap10tripps — May 2, 2007 @ 10:25 pm
Come on, this is LOST..there has to be a twist…JAcob is a powerful figure..maybe Ben created him. Ben has mental issues..(his father rejected him, blamed him for his mother’s death. Ben killed all the Dharma people) so I am thinking Ben has a bit of a split personality . Ben is Jacob (Jacob is Ben)a la Grandma Bates in Pyscho!
No one has ever seen Jacob. Even when “he” spoke, Locke had his back turned. The spooky stuff could just be the island messing with people’s heads…or people being able to have “powers” like telekenisis or what not.
Comment by Marcus — May 9, 2007 @ 7:53 pm
I think that whoever Jacob is he is dead like Ben’s mother and thats why Ben is able to see him and no one else. Just like Ben saw his mother in the jungle as a kid. He has some weord power. Does anyone aree?
Comment by Smallz — May 9, 2007 @ 8:16 pm
I think that whoever Jacob is he is dead like Ben’s mother and thats why Ben is able to see him and no one else. Just like Ben saw his mother in the jungle as a kid. He has some weord power. Does anyone aree?
Comment by Smallz — May 9, 2007 @ 8:16 pm
For those of you who taped/recorded it, go back again and watch as Ben is thrown against the wall by Jacob. Slow it down right as it goes from Ben to where he was originally pushed, right before it cuts to Locke.
You might see something cool.
Comment by kootie — May 9, 2007 @ 11:12 pm
looks like Kris Kristofferson - -
Comment by Jesse — May 10, 2007 @ 10:44 am
I think Jacob is Jack’s dad.
Comment by Brody — May 10, 2007 @ 2:17 pm
Jacob is Alvar Hanso. Look for the lost tapes on the internet, and the secret interview with Aalvar Hanso, you will find that his hair shorter.
Comment by myndworker — May 10, 2007 @ 5:14 pm
Jacob is a disciple of God who is on the island as a protector. The island is purgatory or a place where Man and Spirituality collide. The others/hostiles, are demons looking to start the battle between humans and demons again (constantine). I could go deeper into this but my time is limited right now.
Comment by damo — May 11, 2007 @ 9:55 am
Forgot this link on Jacob earlier.
ttp://www.studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?number=T3186
Comment by damo — May 11, 2007 @ 9:57 am
I think, going back to the whole idea of the island itself possessing some kind of “great power”, that maybe Jacob (after seeing “The Man Behind the Curtain”)is a manifestation of the island’s “spirit”?
Comment by dekka — May 11, 2007 @ 12:44 pm
Here’s my thoughts…
Last summer I watched a movie called, “The Skeleton Key” It was about Hoodoo. Anyway, it’s long been believed to trap a spirit you surround it with a circle of salt, sand, or anything to that matter. This will keep it in or out depending which side your on.
I believe that Ben has trapped Jacob into that little hut. He is a spirit from Mythological times that wants to be set free. “Help Me” he said to Locke. Also, when Locke picked up the powder, Ben told him not to worry about it, they were close to seeing Jacob.
I only mention the prior movie because of a scene where the main character surrounds herself with salt to protect herself from the evil spirits.
It looked like the trail was in a circular pattern.
Comment by Scottie Devious — May 11, 2007 @ 2:15 pm
Okay, don’t read this because it will ruin the next three years of your show.
Here it is in simple terms, use Wikipedia to cross reference because there is just too much info to try and type.
First off, I believe that the island is indeed “Pandora’s Box” here is my reasoning straight from Wikipedia.
Pandora’s Box has become a metaphor for the unanticipated consequences of technical and scientific development.
The most significant of these gifts, however, was a pithos or storage jar,[1] given to Pandora either by Hermes or Zeus. Before he was chained to the rock, Prometheus had warned Epimetheus to be wary of any gifts given by the gods. However, when Pandora arrived, he fell in love with her and married her despite the warning he had been given. Hermes told Epimetheus that Pandora was a gift to the titan from Zeus, and he warned Epimetheus not to open the jar, which was Pandora’s dowry.
Until then, mankind lived life in a paradise without worry. Epimetheus told Pandora never to open the jar she had received from Zeus. However, Pandora’s curiosity got the better of her and she opened it, releasing all the misfortunes of mankind: “For ere this the tribes of men lived on earth remote and free from ills [kakoi] and hard toil [ponoi] and heavy sickness [nosoi argaleai] which bring the Keres [baleful spirits] upon men; for in misery men grow old quickly” (Hesiod, Works and Days). Once opened, she shut it in time to keep one thing in the jar: hope.1 The world remained extremely bleak for an unspecified interval, until Pandora chanced to revisit the box again, at which point Hope fluttered out. Thus, mankind always has hope in times of evil and misfortune.
So there is my thoughts, if you Wiki “Pandora’s Box” you will find references to almost everything in the show. The “Hydra” station. etc.
For example, how about this for Cerebus:
Cerberus guarded the gate to Hades and ensured that spirits of the dead could enter, but none could exit (additionally no living person was to come into Hades). Among his siblings is his sister, Chimera and his brother, Hydra. He is the offspring of Echidna and Typhon.
So what do you think? Just click the wiki links and you will see where I am going with this. Thanks!
Comment by Dave Donaldson — May 11, 2007 @ 2:49 pm
Did anyone pause the show when John and Ben were in the hut with “Jacob”? I’m sure the flash of “Jacob” siting in he chair looked like John with long hair. John does have a connection with the island and the black smoke thing leaves him alone, so maybe there’s a connection there.
Check my URL for screen grab of “Jacob”
Comment by Hamez — May 12, 2007 @ 6:42 am
Good Observation Mr. Devious.
To properly analyze the scene with Jacob in the cabin you have to examine the facts you have before you. At first Locke did not see Jacob so he decided to leave but when Jacob realized that Locke was going to leave he materialized into a visible form to convince him that he was real. Ben realized that Locke saw Jacob by the expression on Locke’s face, Ben wasn’t happy about that. As far as Locke hearing Jacob, as you heard the voice was not Ben’s, however the message was clear Jacob needs help.
Because Locke is his own man on a mission to defy anyone who challenges him, he may be able to stand up against the forces who have trapped Jacob. I have to admit Locke always gets into trouble when he tries to prove himself but one of these times he will get it right.
I do believe as you do that it was Salt trapping the entity known as Jacob in the area around the cabin. Based on the style shirt Jacob is wearing he can’t be that old but he is dead and Ben is manipulating him into giving up secrets of the undead. I believe Jacob is trapped on the island as a disembodied spirit that wasn’t able to complete his journey into death (Heaven or Hell). Who Jacob is requires more information, its too early to tell. I believe Ben is really Ben and not someone else, its just that the spirit of the island realized early on that he was vulnerable and manipulated him into helping the others take over the island.
I have only been watching for about 3 episodes now and I believe that the writers have done their home work to confuse the viewers by incorporating quite a few sources (books, traditions, religions, legends, myths) into a single story. Like the show we are all connected in some way, the only thing that is lost is us until the final episode, remember the people on the island are not lost they just don’t want to leave.
A final note on my last thought, Locke doesn’t want to leave the island. He is on a mission to push himself to the limit to get the answers he is looking for and he is willing to die to find out. He is not afraid to die.
Until the final episode or when ever someone dies its all going to be speculation, remember its just a tv show they can do anything they want.
Comment by Socrates — May 12, 2007 @ 10:09 pm
The others are not dharma. Dharma was purged by the others, which Ben left Dharma to join. The others are also known as the hostiles, and these are who ben joined after killing his father.
Comment by nick — May 14, 2007 @ 5:46 am
hmmm.. didn’t Jacob look a little bit like Ethan? I know it was dark, but the light revealed contours in his nose that could only be explained by Jacob being either Owen Wilson, or the dude that played Ethan. Since I’m pretty sure Owen Wilson can’t be taken seriously, and as we all know Lost is very serious, it must be Ethan. And since that actor (William Mapother) is Tom Cruise’s cousin, he might be granted more screen time……
think about that! scram!
Comment by Beanmans — May 15, 2007 @ 2:10 pm
Jacob does exist.. if you watch the scene with ben and john in the house you can see jacob after Lock shines the torch at him. And i think that jacob is john lock a few years younger
looks like him 
Comment by Davedee — May 20, 2007 @ 7:31 am
Jacob does exist.. if you watch the scene with ben and john in the house you can see jacob after Lock shines the torch at him. And i think that jacob is john lock a few years younger
looks like him 
Comment by Davedee — May 20, 2007 @ 7:32 am