What Lies Beneath?
Insomnia is a funny thing. You can go all day on the verge of collapse, wanting nothing more than a few precious hours of uninterrupted sleep. But as soon as night time rolls around you’re bouncing off the walls with more manic energy than a hyperactive toddler on half a case of Mountain Dew. So with sleep out of the question, what is an insomniac to do with the hours between 2 and 5 a.m.? The answer as it turns out, is to consolidate your sleeplessness with your borderline abnormal obsession with ABC’s Lost, and use those hours to ponder the show’s many mysteries, ultimately arriving at a theory that you’re absolutely positive explains everything … until the next episode airs and you’re proven almost entirely wrong. But with the next episode still three days away, I’ve got at least 72 hours left before I have to admit that my nocturnal brainstorming has been an exercise in futility. So with that, I pose to you the latest rumination to come screeching out of the recesses of my sleep-addled mind (very light, almost non-spoilers discussed after the link):
"The Hellmouth Theory"
Yes. Buffy the Vampire Slayer did it. Actually, the entire show was based around this very concept. But when you really get down to it, every great idea has been done before. It’s all in the execution. For those of you who missed out on BTVS during its run, well first off… shame on you; but secondly, you’ll require some explanation.
A hellmouth, is exactly what it sounds like. A portal to hades, which if left unsealed, will let loose on the world every conceivable form of twisted, nightmarish, monstrosity. Clearly, it’s a good idea to keep these things closed. Otherwise no more sunshine, no more bunny rabbits, and no more mankind. So why all this talk about the end of days? And what exactly does this have to do with Lost? The connection is a growing stack of evidence to support the theory that the entire island is sitting directly on top of its very own underworld.
The idea of an underworld on the island got its first major boost in the latter half of Season 2 when Locke caught his fleeting glimpse of the map on the back of the blast door. After enlarging the map and examining every last centimeter in excruciating detail (I’d expect nothing less from true Lost fans), the name “Cerberus” was discovered. Cerberus of course was the three-headed guardian of hell in Greek mythology, and the map’s clear implication was that Cerberus was also the name of our favorite mind-scanning, shape-shifting, cloud of homicidal black smoke. Numerous structures on the map were labeled “CV” which many presumed stood for “Cerberus Vents,” an assumption recently confirmed by the spoilers which appeared as part of the Lost puzzle series.
But there was another revealing secret to be found in the hatch, hiding in plain sight. The sequence of hieroglyphics which appeared when the countdown timer reached “zero”, was revealed by Damon Lindelof during the July 31st Lost podcast to translate to “underworld.”
So we’ve got a security system named after hell’s guardian, a mysterious reference to an underworld, and Ben’s contention that despite all evidence to the contrary, they’re “the good guys.” See where this is going?
In a recent interview Michael Emerson pondered Ben’s true motives. “He’s fighting some kind of war. I can’t tell exactly what it is but he has a terrible responsibility I think.” I couldn’t agree more. Ben and his people have the weight of the world on their shoulders. And as we learned from the offing of Ms. Klugh in last week’s Sayid-centric outing, they would rather die than reveal their secrets. What I propose to you is this:
The island has an underworld (maybe it’s hell, maybe it’s an ancient evil civilization, whatever… it’s not a nice place) and Smokey is its guardian. Whatever is down there… the Others are charged with the responsibility of containing it at all costs. When DHARMA arrived and started building underground stations all over the island, they disturbed something they shouldn’t have (the mysterious “incident” perhaps?) and were either wiped out by Cerberus or by the Others in a last-resort attempt to stop them from accidentally unleashing whatever was beneath the surface. The Others’ interest in children with special mental abilities is because their powers are being tested as a possible weapon against what lies on the other side of the gate (one that could be used without having to open it up).
There are bound to be, as always, a multitude of additional tangent theories that can be pulled into the mix. But were I to ponder them all right now I might have to spend my next bout of insomnia doing something productive… and we can’t have that.
Lol, that’s funny with the insomnia.
Because I exactly have the same problem.^^
But it sounds interesting, I’m gonna read your insomniac theory. xD
Comment by The Ferryman — March 11, 2007 @ 9:35 pm
I must say this sounds very interesting.
Normally I deny all heaven, hell, djinn or purgatory theories.
But your’s is exceptional. It’s simple and is based mainly on hard facts.
And what I liked the most was that you didn’t insisted the “underworld” actually to be hell.
I still don’t think something like that will be the great mystery of the island, but…
I like it. It isn’t something I would immediately dismiss because one leaned out of the window with his explanation.
Your insomnia seems to produce good theories, huh?
Greetings, The Ferryman
Comment by The Ferryman — March 11, 2007 @ 9:51 pm
Excellent theory… I always wondered how the “Underworld” hieroglyphics would ever tie in to anything but that would perfectly explain it and I would be COMPLETELY satisfied if LOST was heading in this direction. BUT I don’t think that your %100 correct… maybe %50 or %40… i like the idea of the underworld theory, the hellmouth, cerreberus or the black smoke was explained perfectly with your theory BUT the Others part in your theory doesn’t completely make sense. Apparently so far we’ve been lead to believe that the Others have been there for a very long time… atleast longer than Dharma has been there. anyways… my point is that your theory hangs on one important thing for me… the four toed statue.
I’m not calling you out and saying your theory is stupid by no means because I LOVE it personally.. but explain if you will how that statue fits in with your theory.
Comment by Chad — March 11, 2007 @ 10:42 pm
The statue is old along with the other’s, the fact that it appears does not justify your argument against BunnySuction. Although you did state, “your theory hangs on one important thing for ME”, so its only in YOUR head. I really don’t see how the four toed statue is that important, other than to give us a very cool glimpse into the history of the island. Overall i’d say this is a pretty solid theory, but i’ll be happy with whatever the Lost team comes up with down the road.
Comment by tanside — March 12, 2007 @ 12:49 am
“And what I liked the most was that you didn’t insisted the “underworld” actually to be hell.”
Sorry, but Lost doesn’t cater to your likes and dislikes, no matter your baggage.
Comment by Jello — March 12, 2007 @ 1:34 am
Oooo, yes this works for me. And like you said it doesn’t have to be Hell as such.
Also, Ben did say “God can’t see this place” or some such.
However, it feels that it is more of an additional layer to the mysteries (like the producers have stated - no one answer).
Cindi and he ‘watchers’ group appear to be ‘phaze shifted’ or whatever out of line with everyone else, although Karl seemed to suggest that they were aligned to the Others/Hostiles by saying the kids were sent to a better place.
The four toed statue is still an enigma tho, as Adam and Eve are. I doubt we have anough info to tie up those just yet.
Comment by Nick — March 12, 2007 @ 1:42 am
Greetings fellow insomniacs!
Saw Par Avion trailer on TV tonight and can’t get it out of my mind. I am mystified that a group of such egregious human rights violators would claim to be the “good guys”. Their ends really must justify their meanness. Patchy did say they were there before DHARMA. Nice, bunch of hippy-dippies move in and blithely start building their version of Rousseau’s paradise without any forethought of what they were getting into. My feeling is that writers will not go into an explicitly theological direction tho religion, via Said, Eko, Charlie and Locke has had its’ moments. All that’s missing is for Bernie the dentist to have a Jewish moment and Sun to go all buddhist on us and we will have covered most of the world’s main beliefs, not to mention psychics, faith healers, ritual magic and that godawful brainwashing episode wtih Karl. Heck, why not have a flashback Kate repent and find Jesus at a revival meeting?
I had pegged the others for some science cult run by a foaming at the mouth atheist Darwinist trying to fast track us into improvement. I figured they’d be the counterweight to the flawed, impulsive believers from the crash. Turns out they have some strong non-scientific beliefs of their own.
I tend to favour a way-out physical/spiritual explanation for the island but then I’m an unreconstructed trekkie. Became an addict as a kid and still am jonesing for some pointy-eared aliens.
Incidentally, I am under the impression that Juliet’s brand, placed in a horribly cruel way on an erogenous zone on women’s bodies, (yup, those tattoos are a road map to a woman’s heart) is the astronomical symbol of the asteroid Juno, the roman goddess of marriage and childbirth. Juno Lucina being the form she takes to guide the child through the birth canal. Juliet, fertility doctor, goddess symbol. Go figure!
Incidentally, don’t nobody come swinging after me about what I wrote. I am a strong believer married to a Muslim scientist and any body who has been a grad student can vouch that science generates just as many wacky cults run by charismatic leaders who don’t tolerate being questioned as religion does. Heck, maybe that’s what Lost is about.
Comment by Odette — March 12, 2007 @ 2:09 am
I wish there was one episode telling the island’s history before and after dharma arrived. How cool would be to see the construction of the hatches, people actually using the road we found on the map, what is the deal with that statue and etc. Perhaps that would be a great way to kill the time between seasons. Maybe a few of short episodes each week, maybe 5-10 minutes long telling the island mythology.
Comment by Ed — March 12, 2007 @ 4:20 am
Best post I’ve seen Doc. It almost makes too much sense. I’ve got a slight variation. There is more Cerberus activity near “the dark territory.” What if the dark territory was the gateway to hell (or a hell-like place), and the question mark was a gateway to a higher plane of existence? I would then theorize that the ancient civilization on the island as being protectors of the world/masters of fate, as they are trying to make sure the course of things (that would protect our world) is not altered (essentially holding off an apocalypse). I have read theories on heaven as being a higher plane of existence that runs on a higher frequency (not a harp filled place in the clouds). In this regard heaven is actually where we are from and the plane we currently exist on is a place to further enlighten ourselves. You’ve heard the term “old soul.” An old soul would be someone who has been through our current plane many times. Now hell is theorized as a kind of detour before you reach the higher plane. If you have a “black” energy (evil soul) you are detoured to a sort of dark place and eventually doomed to be recycled right back into this plane (essentially never reaching enlightenment). Perhaps a dark energy could be brought to the correct path by someone with a light energy (and vice versa). On LOST we see that light vs. dark is a recurring theme as well as science vs. faith. I feel that both of these themes will come into play with the big mysteries. I’ve always felt that faith and science as well as good and evil is usually a grey area (”the road to hell is paved with good intentions”). Who are “the good guys” here? Is science just a way to either ensure or alter fate? Is the four toed statue a hint of an enlightened, science using, fate mongering race of ancient protectors of this plane of existence? Has the incident put us in jeopardy? Is Desmond our savior? Is Cerberus actually there to keep people out who don’t belong in the dark territory and devour those who do? Tune in next time…
Comment by cap10tripps — March 12, 2007 @ 6:08 am
Hey Chad. The four-toed statue to me, actually fits in pretty nicely with the idea of an ancient civilization or evil force that inhabbited the island before being sealed away. That’s pure speculation however. What it really comes down to I think, is that any theory which attempts to explain everything is guaranteed to fall short, as there probably isn’t just one “thing” going on that explains every mystery at once, but rather multiple things happening all at once, interlocked into a complex story-web. For example, we now know that the polar bears (one of Season One’s biggest mysteries) were remnants of DHARMA experiments in zoological adaptation, but that fact can be presumed to be pretty tangential to the larger mystery of the island.
Comment by Bunny Suction — March 12, 2007 @ 6:48 am
When Sayid et al were heading north to the flame station the compass worked. This seems to indicated the magnetic anomaly from earlier in the show as in fact destroyed by the destruction of Swan.
Comment by ian — March 12, 2007 @ 6:54 am
And remember how the Smoke Monster tried to pull Locke down into some kind of hole.That could very wel have been one of the Cerberus Vents
Comment by Keto — March 12, 2007 @ 6:58 am
Like the theory, though the actions of Cerberus -going with the generally accepted assumption that Smokey is Cerberus, that is- seem to be odd if that’s the case. If Cerberus is guarding the underworld, why is Cerberus killing off people who aren’t in it, and why in such deceptive and torturous ways (i.e. manifesting as Yemi and people Eko killed to torture Eko before killing him off)? Is it possible that the “underworld” isn’t meant in terms of the usual literal “above/below” sense and more corresponds with geographical locations on the island?
Just throwing it out there for those thinking along the lines of the theory suggested in this item/article. I don’t know how to map it on but I’m sure some of you can make it work.
Comment by Richard Lennox — March 12, 2007 @ 7:16 am
The only problem with your theory is that if Dharma built the hatches, then they were in on the building the hieroglyphs and naming smokey cerebus as well. This means that they had to be in on the “secret” of the island somehow and weren’t just scientists building hatches.
Comment by Joshua — March 12, 2007 @ 7:31 am
WOW! Probably one of, if not THE best threory I’ve read to date. That would make so much sense. Too bad this probably not going to happen, too good to be true.
Comment by Aeolian42 — March 12, 2007 @ 8:06 am
Your theory certainly has possibilities, let me give you this to think about. What if in fact the smoke monster (Cerberus)is a worm hole, a portal through time if you will. Doc Jenzen posted a theory after Echo’s death in which DJ believed Echo, through the power of the island had
come to terms with his demons, forgiven himself for his past, which was played out in his final dialogue with Simi before he is killed. The last scene we see of the episode is Echo and Simi walking as boys at the end of the day with their soccer ball in hand. DJ theorized that this was not a glimpse into heaven but into the past, a past with a new ending. Echo had been given a reprieve by the island allowing for a new course of events from that original day when he was forced to kill for his brother. What we saw in that final scene was Echo and Simi simply going home at the end of a day unaware of events that would have changed them forever. As for Echo’s death what we saw on the surface as a violent exchange between the smoke monster and Echo but in actuality was Echo’s body simply being discarded for him to travel back in time. Possible?
Comment by B — March 12, 2007 @ 8:22 am
Radzinski is who named the monster “Cerberus.” Underworld could be based on the island location. “Shambala” (hinted at in “Tricia Tanaka is Dead”) was written by Tibetan Buddhists to be located deep within the Himilayas (as in underneath). I find the underground idea to be particularly interesting since scientists have recently discovered underground oceans. This island could very well be located deep within the earth.
If we all agree that Smokey is Cerberus-like at the least, then the big question is what is Smokey exactly? As in is it a manifestation of energy/souls? Was it created by DHARMA? Is it some kind of psychic manifestation? I think the nanocloud theory has been laid to rest by the big guys, but plenty of interesting possibilities.
Comment by cap10tripps — March 12, 2007 @ 8:23 am
ben said “God doesn’t even know where this place is.”
well, God can’t look upon sin, so if the island is sitting on top of hell, then obviously God wouldn’t see it.
Comment by kosmickaos — March 12, 2007 @ 8:25 am
Great ideas B. We’ve already seen in “Flashes Before Your Eyes” that we are dealing with alternate planes of consciousness (as in the past, present, and future). If what you say is true, then there is much more to Smokey than being a guardian of the underworld. Ecko comes to terms with his fate, thus giving him a chance to change it. I like it, but what of another possibility in the same vein? What if he was sent into his past as sort of a punishment for not repenting his past? Maybe it deals with the belief that we go through our physical existence more than once to get it right.
Comment by cap10tripps — March 12, 2007 @ 8:53 am
Hands down THE BEST explanation to this show!!! Doc I now am kneeled at your ‘Lost’ feet!
For those who are constantly obsessed with trying to prove God/Hell does not exist…..There is WAY TOO much evidence in people’s lives through out history to prove life is based upon good/evil and not some derivative of humanist garbage psycho-babel of ‘jesus of the suberbs’.
As Odette says above scientists are the biggest bunch intolarant hypocrites alive.
I like this Doc. It is based upon facts not about theories of and musings of disconnected dots.
But of course now that you have published it, the producers are going to try to spin the show some other way just to make sure you aren’t correct!
But one question did not the producers say in your interview the map in the hatch as served its purpose or am I confused?
Comment by thirdflr — March 12, 2007 @ 8:57 am
Hi thirdflr. They did in fact say that about the map. Actually, the map no longer even exists as a result of the hatch implosion/explosion/whatever; however, that just means the map won’t be driving any more major plotlines. It doesn’t rule out the existence of clues and hints from the map that were presented in Season 2 that we simply didn’t have enough facts to fully interpret at the time.
Comment by Bunny Suction — March 12, 2007 @ 9:16 am
Ummm… several of you guys address Doc in your comments. You did notice this was posted by BunnySuction and not DocArzt, didn’t you?
Comment by ntp — March 12, 2007 @ 9:21 am
Actually, we should all note that it wasn’t Doc that posted this theory, and give credit where credit is due. This entry was made by BunnySuction on 11 Mar 2007 at 21:10.
I’m glad to see the new blood making such a great contribution.
Comment by MajinTopcat — March 12, 2007 @ 9:26 am
Hay Majin. Thanks to you and everyone else for the kudos. Glad to be contributing to the site. If my current sleeping patterns hold this will be the first of many such entries.
Comment by Bunny Suction — March 12, 2007 @ 9:29 am
I think science and faith have always been intertwined. The more primitive our species was, the more we did not understand the nature of things. That’s why religion has ruled this world for so long. The answers were given to us, so we had faith in our particular sects. Now as we become more advanced/evolved we see science explaining our faith (giving us tangible answers). Science has always been seen as the antithesis of faith, but what if they were one in the same? Perhaps faith could be strengthened by science. Instead of saying heaven is a mystical land in the clouds with angels and harps and St. Peter meets you at the gate, maybe heaven was just used as a metaphor that people could wrap their brains around at the time. Alternate planes of existence and frequencies and the concept of pure energy were probably a little hard to comprehend back in the day (which was a Wednesday by the way). My point is that I think the writers and producers of LOST are going to come up with ideas that deal with faith but seem tangible through what science has discovered or theorized.
Comment by cap10tripps — March 12, 2007 @ 9:31 am
Great topic Bunny. I gave the kudos to Doc by mistake, but I really enjoy these sort of topics. So kudos to Doc for giving Bunny the power to post topics…
Comment by cap10tripps — March 12, 2007 @ 9:34 am
i like the theory although i dont think its right. Why would the smoke monster lead jack to the caves and the water if it was evil and give echo a chance to live , it doesnt make sense
Comment by thomas muir — March 12, 2007 @ 9:47 am
Maybe Ecko goes back as a sort of punishment since he does not have “dark energy” but he was steely in his non-repentance. If he did have dark energy his punishment would be much more severe. Jack on the other hand is still being given the chance for redemption. He still has a chance to cleanse his soul. The island is not done with him yet…
Comment by cap10tripps — March 12, 2007 @ 10:07 am
Interesting. ‘Couple of things. Kelvin explained the Incident in “Live Together, Die Alone”. And the Other Adam in “A Tale of Two Cities” strongly suggests that the Others are *not* interested in special children/people. (Children, yes. Special children, no.) Also, how does the Purge tie into this, assuming that it’s true?
Comment by S. A. Bonasi — March 12, 2007 @ 10:21 am
Love that you worked BTVS into the LOST universe.
Not so sure about this theory, though. You do indeed point out many connecting references to hades, but half of them are dependent on DHARMA nutters’ input into naming Cerebrus and using the hieroglyphics in the hatch. Time spent punching numbers in the hatch probably contributes to thinking of the island as hell.
More and more through what’s revealed in the show it seems that DHARMA may have not been so well informed of the true nature of the island as The Others seem to be.
At the moment, I lean toward the idea that The Others are a cult, however ancient, and they are incredibly vehement about protecting information (to the point of Ms. Klugh’s sacrifice) and the island in general so that their society is left alone.
Evidently there are problems with the effects of the special nature of the island, hence why they brought in people like Juliet, but mystery could simply be about why the island is so special because keeping the island a secret and maintaining their society could be the only two motivations of The Others.
So maybe Ben’s terrible responsibility is just being the leader doing the above and in that, having to deal with all of the people marooned on the island while maintaining order.
Comment by karmachu — March 12, 2007 @ 10:27 am
“My point is that I think the writers and producers of LOST are going to come up with ideas that deal with faith but seem tangible through what science has discovered or theorized.”-Cap10tripps
I couldn’t agree more, el capitan….Think of the success of the DaVinci Code(the book, not the movie). They were applying actual events to the story of Christ’ time on Earth. Suppose our LOST creators have stumbled upon a story telling device that would let them explain the creation of man, but in a scientific way.
In the real world,as much as they’re finding Christ’s bones in a tomb to finding Noah’s Ark in the Himalayas, who’s to say that the Garden of Eden couldn’t be discovered? And using that train of thought, what if our LOST creators found a way to intertwine Bible stories with today’s events?
When Adam and Eve ate the fruit of “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil”, they became aware. God was worried that they would continue to partake of the tree and feared they would become immortal. So he booted their asses and set up a cherubim to guard the Garden. This information was gathered from the all knowing wikipedia.
What if the island is the Garden of Eden? what if Ben is a descendant of Adam and Eve? Mix him in with the Dharma Initiative folks and after the purge, you’re left with a group who’s mission it is to protect the island. What if the Dharma Initiative found a way to circumvent the cherubim(Smokey) and figured out a way to gain immortality from the island’s powers? Ben and his people lay the smackdown on them and it’s their sole mission to protect the island.
Another fun fact, thanks to wikipedia is the name Samael. It is believed that this Angel of Death was the one who tempted Eve in the Garden of Eden. He is also associated as the angel who wrestled Jacob, back in the day(a Wednesday) as he was returning to Canaan to submit his loyalty to his twin brother Esau. It was said that the angel was either God himself or an angel(Samael) and that he was Esau’s guardian angel. Bad Twin, anyone?
All of this screams LOST to me but I could be reading to much into it. I don’t suffer from insomnia, actually the opposite. I am only awake 1 hour a week, ironically on Wednesday nights 10/9 central.
Comment by El Prez — March 12, 2007 @ 10:44 am
If we find out that Smokey’s real name is Samael, then I will be vindicated. That fact and 20 cents will get me half a cup of coffee…
Comment by El Prez — March 12, 2007 @ 10:46 am
As i understand course correction to be the universes way of adjusting to people tryig to change there path. that means u cannot change good or bad because your path is already chosen for you and free will doesnt exist.So smokey giving echo a chance doesnt make sense since his path is already chosen
Comment by thomas muir — March 12, 2007 @ 10:54 am
if u take echos last episode the smoke monster seems to confront him and say he should apoligise for his past echo said he did not ask for the life he was given , but it was given none the less .In desmonds episode we learn no matter what we try to do the universe will course correct,so that means echo followed the path he was given but if he tried to change it he would have been course corrected by the universe so he did have no choice, but the smoke monster ignored him and killed him
Comment by thomas muir — March 12, 2007 @ 11:05 am
We all know that the Island is a character of the show on its own. Imagining a whole sinister underground civilization just waiting to surface is terrifyingly good!
Then the losties are literally just “scratching the surface” on the island’s misteries with the Others…
I like it!
Comment by Lost_in_Brazil — March 12, 2007 @ 11:58 am
Most of you guys are convinced that Smokey could be Cerberus, but one thing the Doc skipped was that the name Cerberus was actually a name for one of the stations, check the blast door map, it’s there. It says that particular station was abandoned due to some incident (THE incident, perhaps?). So, we still have to see what’s the deal with that station. Was it built for contention of Smokey, hence the name? Or, to create it?…
Comment by Hades — March 12, 2007 @ 12:18 pm
Hey Lost in Brazil, check out the www (maybe good ol’ wickipedia) for info on “lizard people” sitings. Supposedly there have been thoughts on a subsurface race of people. It’s crazy but for real. There have been multiple sitings of an alien race who may dwell deep within the earth. LOST might have taken some ideas from that creepy subject for all we know.
Yo Hades, I have a printout of the blast door hatch with info on each of the scribblings/markings from Radzinski (I have too much free time at work). I don’t recall a station being named Cerberus, but I do recall one station being abandoned or not in use (due to incident?). I’ll check it again though. If you are right it would certainly change a lot of my thoughts on Mr. Smokey.
EL PREZ! What’s up homey? I’ve had some recent thoughts regarding the nature of The Others vs. DHARMA. What if The Others are DHARMA? Maybe it was the mad scientists who purged our islands of their native people. Perhaps we have not met the actual natives yet and our old friends from 815 have been brought (strategically by Des in my opinion) to restore order and make sure the balance that the natives see over is maintained. Thoughts???
Comment by cap10tripps — March 12, 2007 @ 1:24 pm
cap10-
I had the same thoughts…theorist brothers from different mothers..:) I’ve been remembering all of my Sunday school teaching and I think the writers of this show have some serious credit to give when this thing is all said and done….Check out this theory:
In my latest musings, I have compared the Island to the Garden of Eden..Actually Eden was the place and the tree that Adam and Eve ate from was in the garden…So the island is Eden…If that’s the case, Adam and Eve had children(Cain and Abel are the most popular) but they had to have female offspring as well…Which means that after Cain killed Able, he ran off with his sister and they sired some children. Those kids had to marry each other and have kids..Incestuous and inbred? You got it!! But theoligists claim that this wasn’t as inbred as it seems. Adam and Eve were creations of God, perfect in every way, pure bloods. The further the lineage splits from the core, the less perfect the offspring become, which leads to babies with birth defects or anyone from West Virginia….I KID! I KID! I swear….anyhoo, that all sets up my theory that the Others can’t concieve their own children..Technically they are all related. The lineage is moving further from the purity…This is when the Dharma folks showed up..All that hippie love caused some real problems, as I believe the Dharma folks were comingling with the Island folks and having some messed up kids. You need look no further than the Nephilim. These were angels cast out of heaven who saw the daughters of man from heaven and wanted to get busy with them. This led to giants and other weird stuff, so God decided to squash the whole thing and came up with the flood. He left Noah and his family and all the animals in 2’s to rebuild the world.
So my point is, what if the same thing “happened” on the island? The Dharma folk(The Nephilim) came, screwed up the lineage, Jacob(God on the island) led a group of others on a flood like mission(the purge) and now all that’s left are the pure bloods….
I’ve seen crazier thoughts on here…Just thought I’d plant my freak flag…
Comment by El Prez — March 12, 2007 @ 2:39 pm
Bunny, I stand corrected….Kudos to your theory….
Comment by thirdflr — March 12, 2007 @ 3:58 pm
they didn’t find Christ’s bones in a tomb. The tomb they found that was supposedly Jesus’s, was in fact completely empty.
Comment by kosmickaos — March 12, 2007 @ 4:17 pm
cap10
Hard to argue your point about echo perhaps being punished however I will stand by my theory, well more Doc Jensen’s theory because what Echo did, and said he would do again was to life a evil to save his brother from the same fate.
Are you familiar with “String THeory”, I am a novice at best so Wik it but basically String is able to tie Quantum Physics together with Einstein’s theories something tought impossible. And the irony of string theory is that, if true, allows for multiple dimesions, a parallel universe perhaps. I theorize that the island is actually in another dimension, and that it is in a different time. A remark Hugo made in a very early episode, joking about something like “not where are we but when”.
Comment by B — March 12, 2007 @ 4:32 pm
And technically they haven’t found Noah’s Ark either…But Indiana Jones did find the Ark of the Covenent and the Holy Grail…I believe he will find Jesus, Noah and the Garden of Eden in Indiana Jones 4: The Trifecta…
Seriously, the idea that it could be found was what I was getting at…Scientifically explained Biblical phenomana(sp?) as the backbone of the story and the fate versus coincidence debate as the flesh of the story…and the pretty girls as the giblets of the story…
Comment by El Prez — March 12, 2007 @ 4:35 pm
there must have been something in the hatch for only desmond to have the flashes and not lock or echo remember they were all in the same area, probably same sort of tiny blackhole or wormhole
Comment by thomas muir — March 12, 2007 @ 5:03 pm
there must have been something in the hatch for only desmond to get the flashes and not lock or echo as they were all in the same area, probably a tiny blackhole or wormhole
Comment by thomas muir — March 12, 2007 @ 5:06 pm
there must have been something in the hatch for only desmond to get the flashes and not lock or echo as they were all in the same area, probably a tiny blackhole or wormhole
Comment by thomas muir — March 12, 2007 @ 5:06 pm
Hey, Cap10
I have this “Conspiracy Theories” book (in portuguese) that has, among other good ol’ conspiracies, references do a hybrid alien race that would be infiltrated on Earth. The Reptilians, if i remember correctly…
Anyways… I personaly don’t think Lost would even go that far, they left that for X-Files… I think that having a whole new civilization underground would be very cool for Lost because then they would create a whole new cosmos of mithology right there and the possibilties would be infinite, really… But maybe something more down to Earth, not so out there like those aliens conspiracies…
The four-toed statue really is a head scratcher… Why is it there? Is it proving an old civilization that inhabited the island? Is that civilization still there, underground? Or are they all dead? Or is it just a big hoax? Heck, it might even be “creative license” of the sculptor! lol
I’m glad that Lost got its way back on track, if it ever was off…
Cheers!
Comment by Lost_in_Brazil — March 12, 2007 @ 6:00 pm
Insomnia sucks
Comment by Renzo — March 12, 2007 @ 6:48 pm
Yeah Renzo… seriously! Hopefully tonight I sleep like a log.
Comment by Bunny Suction — March 12, 2007 @ 7:31 pm
Glad some other people picked up on the reproductive issues with the others. It really doesn’t take long for a small population, a few generations really, to start showing founder effects and scary recessive traits when isolated. The Neguev bedouins have been in that situation for only 50 yrs and are helping rewrite Islamic tenets on abortion, birth control and genetic testing, that’s how freaky their gene pool can be. No offense, nice folks, but this cousin thing is literally killing them.
So, if the others are science-minded at all and have some obsession with physical perfection, then of course they need to add new members from outside all the time if they want to keep going.
Which brings us to Alex. Supposedly Rousseau’s daughter, Ben considers himself her father, people are trying to keep her and Karl apart like they’re Romeo and Juliet : ), yet Ben puts up with Alex’s dissidence in a surprising way considering how he messed up Juliet’s sexual response mechanism. In other words, if wanted to discipline Alex, he would just have to leave her to that Diana Scarwid character. Part small-town southern sheriff, part mother superior, I bet she could bible-beat Alex into submission in no time at all. I guess less eggs vs. more sperm wins the day on the island. How sociobiological of them!
Also surprised me to see how easily they gave up on Claire’s baby.
Which brings me to disease issues and contagion. Remember the shots they gave Claire and that she got from the Dharma Drop, as well as Desmond, Inman etc.
Meanwhile it looks like Patchy recently had small pox or something.
Is there a connection?
Let’s not forget our fertility doctor, wearing the mark of the Roman birth goddess, who’s remembering why there’s a bumper sticker that says “Surgeons do it better”. Somehow, you get the feeling that doing what comes naturally doesn’t sit right with Ben and his crew.
You know, all said and done, I don’t think we’re going in a Star Trek/X-files direction. Brief history of time meets Dr. Jacques Vall
Comment by Odette — March 12, 2007 @ 11:14 pm
Uh, I think we all spent way too much time in college lit. classes, don’t you find?
Comment by odette — March 12, 2007 @ 11:18 pm
um,what does that mean in layman terms?
Comment by thomas muir — March 13, 2007 @ 2:00 am
I like it! It actually explains a lot of things that no other theory explains… but I’m still iffy on the ‘underworld’ thing.
The others have been here for a very long time, their job is to protect/guard something that has a greater impact on the world. Saving it. That’s why they’re the good guys. They’re only looking for certain people to join them, why they don’t want to leave the island.
This suggests that may have lost the ability to repoduce after something that happened when Dharma arrived… or conversely, maybe these people are very VERY old and never ageed.. so there was no need to reproduce, and something Dharma did caused them to age?
I like the underworld connection, but what is this underworld? I don’t think it’s a portal to Monsters a’la “DOOM”, and I don’t think it’s to the dead or afterlife… too scifi/fantasy. They’re guarding something though… only time will tell.
Comment by Tom — March 13, 2007 @ 4:41 am
To the one guy who mentioned the compass. I think the compass worked, but was obviously not facing north. I use the boat that Mike and Walt used to escape at a heading of 325. Ekos stick said “lift up your eyss and look north, JOHN 3:05. Bible passages would’t be 3:05, it would be 3:5, and John 3:5 says nothing like this. It’s a compass heading that may have come to Eko in a dream. So usuming this.. they’re actually heading Northwest as per the compass.. they’re making a correction of 55 degrees to compensate for the magnetic anomoly.
Comment by tom — March 13, 2007 @ 4:49 am
Cap10!! where are you buddy?!? This Odette stuff is the kind of thing that usually leaves you drooling!
All good posts…They had me thinking about Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Remember that group who protected the location of the Holy Grail? Not the old Knights who guarded it but the other ones? What if Ben and his group are protecting the secrets of the island? To keep the secrets from being used for evil? Or what if the opposite is true? Imagine that they are trying to get to the source of power but need to get past Smokey first? Is Smokey the Cherubim guarding the Island secrets?
Bunny mentioned Cerebus Vents…Is this where Smokey comes up from the ground? Remember Season 1 finale when it tried to drag Locke into a hole? Perhaps Smokey is guarding the “hot spot”, the only area that needs to be guarded…which is why he’s not a threat to the Others. Or that alarm system we see in the next episode keeps Smokey at bay??…
Comment by El Prez — March 13, 2007 @ 5:56 am
Odette…..
“….by showing us a new, synthetic approach to understanding the world as a divine yet intensely knowable place….”
Anytime I read the word synthetic, I see ‘man made imitation’ of what should be ‘God made authentic’.
Sorry, call me a right wing fundamentalist, man is not God. Never will be, never can be. Man is flawed, God is not. Science is a study of what God has made. When we die we will know how good/or badly man was off about the study of science.
Otherwise Odette, I like your thinking I enjoy your sleuthing as well.
Comment by thirdflr — March 13, 2007 @ 7:00 am
ThirdFlr..
Lets try to keep our personal religious convictions to ourselves(as peacful and non confrontational that it was). We’re talking about Lost here… a work of fiction. Any topic or theory is open game, but your personal religious beliefs, no matter how noble, are just that, Personal, and doesn’t relate to Lost in any way.
Comment by Tom — March 13, 2007 @ 7:20 am
Tom I will take heed but I think everyone else here is throwing out ALOT of religious muck here too.
Comment by thirdflr — March 13, 2007 @ 7:28 am
Well Tom, thirdflr did say to call him a right wing fundamentalist….:)
That’s what’s great about this show…You can posit all type of theories but it may end up coming down to the Season finale titles:
Man of Science, Man of Faith
and
Live Together, Die Alone
As a society we have the polar opposite views, yet we all manage to move forward as one human unit. One could make a case that we are in the process of evolution, based on the creation of a higher power. Now that’s science backed by faith.
But you’re right…it’s good to have beliefs in life and they may play into the greater overall story of LOST but keeping it about the show is good for the boards.
Comment by El Prez — March 13, 2007 @ 7:35 am
The writers seem to be leading us down a path that pulls from more Biblical references, i.e. Jacob, Eko’s stick, etc….I think that’s a major clue to part of the back story of the island. While I have mentioned the Garden of Eden and all that theory proposed, I’ve tried to keep personal beliefs out of it. I mean, I believe we are all part of an alien race that lives deep within the ocean, ala James Cameron’s The Abyss. But I keep that to myself for now…until it’s proven that the cable that goes from the beach feeds into an underwater society….
Comment by El Prez — March 13, 2007 @ 7:46 am
YES Bunny, YES! I think youre so close with this one, mainly because it’s exactly what I think!
I keep coming back to this very same theory. To me, it’s the only one that holds up in the face of all we’ve learned since the moment we first saw the Blast Door Map.
When Walt was taken because he was “special”, the first thing I thought was “hmm kind of similar to the way that the Crimson King uses psychic children to destablize the Beams in Stephen King’s Dark Tower series”. And lo and behold, King starts popping up in episodes, and the writers are claiming that his work is a huge inspiration to the show!
But then I thought, “These Other’s motives arent that clear, maybe theyre benevolent. maybe they’ve taken Walt because they need him to aid Cerberus in keeping whatever untold monstrosoties lurk in the Underworld suggested. This could still very much be the case, as we learn that at least some of the people on the Island have been there for ages and would have to have some idea of the dangers that exist there.
Add a bunch of further plot developments that neither confirm or deny that theory and that’s where I’m at now. Theres a lot more to it of course, and I have other theories, but I’m not overly fond of typing so soon after waking up.
Comment by Jimmy Zero — March 13, 2007 @ 8:07 am
Hey Jimmy,
Great catch with the Stephen King connection. Given the producer’s professed love of King, that definitely adds more fuel to the fire.
Comment by Bunny Suction — March 13, 2007 @ 8:40 am
Hey El Prez did ya learn that one in sunday school?
Ok I will keep my convictions to myself but no one is more right wing fundamentalist than Osama…
Comment by thirdflr — March 13, 2007 @ 9:37 am
which part, 3rdflr? The aliens in the ocean??
As an alien, we have our Sunday school on a Tuesday….
I have to admit..I haven’t read as much Stephen King as I have the Good book but with the way this show is written and directed, with such a mixed group of individuals, the idea that they are blending a bunch of influences together and creating this great soup is pretty cool…
Fan til the end…
Comment by El Prez — March 13, 2007 @ 10:30 am
First time poster and relative novice to the Lost theories. But this is a great theory that finally got me thinking in a direction that allowed me to resolve something I’ve been pondering for a while: the very nature of the Others.
Basically, my feeling for some time has been that the “game changer” would be that the Others were, in fact, definitely the good guys. While this is certainly not a unique theory, Bunny’s post provided direction for me to come up with one possibility of HOW this could be (one I have not seen previously…in other words, it’s not listed on Lostpedia). And if this theory happens to be true, alot of pieces subsequently fall into place. Also, while Bunny’s theory certainly inspired this one, I think this theory could work under other explanations as well.
In a nutshell, the Others are angels. And He/Him is God.
(WARNING: references to the spoilerish ABC promo are ahead)
Using biblical characteristics, I think the following would be explained away:
-angels haven’t always existed, but they’re way older than men
-angels typically don’t reproduce (the only occurrence was before the Flood, as mentioned earlier)
-angels do have different rankings and classifications
-”the list” corresponds to the biblical elect
-”faith like a child” is a necessary attribute for conversion…this is much easier with actual children
-the actual name of He/Him is so revered that people don’t actually say it for fear of taking it in vain…this is precisely why today we don’t really know the actual original pronunciation of the Hebrew name of God, YHWH
-DHARMA was trying to “play God” by trying to change the coefficients of the Valenzetti equation…as a result, they were destroyed/scattered in the Purge (think the Flood or Tower of Babel incidents)
-the Losties only live on the island because the Others “let” them
-it was revealed to Cindy (for whatever reason) what their divine mission was…so it would be really easy for her to accept pretty much anything she saw (including Jack in a cage) if she knew it was for the greater good
Now of course, like any theory, there’s surely some counter evidence too (namely, the Hanso/DeGroot appearances in the Room 23 video). But it is interesting to think about…and I’m sticking with this until something happens to blow it to shreds. Which, with my luck, will probably happen Wednesday at 10.
(As a side note, I really like the Eden theory too.)
Comment by ORPhD — March 13, 2007 @ 11:41 am
Very well put, OR! Post more often, this is some good theory….
DHARMA trying to play God would explain Alvar Hanso and the Degroots in Room 23…as soon as Karl started spreading his anarchist wings, they promptly thumped him and set him up for reprogramming by showing images of other anarchist individuals. Perhaps they used the Degroots as an example of where pompousness can get you.
The question remains: what’s the point of communication with the outside world? To keep tabs on what’s happening in the real world? They may be angels but in human form, with human fallibilities(sickness, death). Those things keep them from traveling outside of the island but allows them to bring “elected” people in…
Comment by El Prez — March 13, 2007 @ 12:15 pm
i think cerberus runs on a rail underground. like a train with a giant mechanical arm attached lol and can only come up specific places
Comment by thomas muir — March 13, 2007 @ 12:54 pm
Hey Mr. El Prez Esq., This is definitely our kind of post. I love your Eden ideas. The great thing about all of our theories is that a lot of them could be right in some way. A lot of these elements make sense, so a piece of each of them could make up the completed puzzle. The greatest thing about this show is how it makes people think. In a sense you could argue that it’s all about evolving (which is what I believe DHARMA was/is getting into). I love ideas of biblical metaphors (Eden) and parllel universes/dimensions. They may seem sci/fi to some people, but in actuality they are both ideas that have never been disproven.
Yo B, I throw out a lot of ideas on this site to see if anything sticks, but I don’t necessarily believe all of them. I’m just acknowledging possibilities. I think it’s important for us all (no matter what our personal beliefs are) to acknowledge possibilities.
Thirdflr, on that point I believe what people are trying to say is to not discount something from LOST because it doesn’t fit into your religious convictions. That being said, I’m perfectly fine with you writing about how you believe the show fits into the things that you believe. I want to know every idea out there. I’m perfectly fine with your beliefs and you seem fine with mine, so let’s keep the ideas flowing. I really do believe it’s very important for everyone in this world (Muslims, Christians, Jews, Atheists, Catholics, Canadiens, etc.) to acknowledge (no matter how strong their faith is) that nobody really knows anything for sure…
Comment by cap10tripps — March 13, 2007 @ 12:58 pm
cap10tripps,
That’s exactly what I was trying to say.. and I couldn’t say it better.
Comment by Tom — March 13, 2007 @ 1:44 pm
Oh Cap10, my cap10….Work must have you too bogged to blog…glad you’re back and thanks for the props. I also don’t want to discount other religious beliefs playing a part on the show. Obviously there’s Buddhism and Muslim ideals playing into the overall story. I think the writers are blending all of this stuff, like Sawyer blends his pop culture references.
Now,if we can get Doc’s insight on some of this and keep him off the ratings warpath, we could solve this dang thing!
I’m digging everyone’s insights today…this is why I come here…
Now let’s all hold hands and sing Shambala…Or koom-by-ya…
Comment by El Prez — March 13, 2007 @ 2:01 pm
*jumps in the middle of the circle to breakdance*
All that singing has me thinking of the obvious similarities between the islands and Shambala. The opening lyrics are something like, “Wash away my troubles, wash away my pain with the rain in Shambala.” That has me wondering about all the damn rain there. Is that a constant metaphor of baptism/purification? Also, the Himilayas (Shambala’s located deep within the Himilayas) have been thought to be the final resting place of Noah’s Ark. That has me thinking of the El Prez Eden theory along with The Black Rock. These connections make plenty of sense. Could Shambala and Eden be the same place (just described differently by different religions)? I don’t think we’d be seeing a biblical (or buddhist) literal description, but it could be the place the writings were written about. On that note I’ll reitterate a scientific belief that through evolution we will eventually lose our littlest piggy (4 toed statue). If this is Eden/Shambala, then the natives would be inhabitants of the first known humans. That would obviously mean they are much more evolved then our oil monger run society, thank god (or who/whatever)…
Comment by cap10tripps — March 13, 2007 @ 2:38 pm
What we need to find out is if Ben has all of his toes..DOES ANYONE HAVE A SCREEN CAPTURE OF BEN’S FEET?!?!?!?!?!
Seriously..anybody?
I often go back to the time loop theory. What if the 4 toed statue is from the future? Maybe it’s from another iteration where Desmond doesn’t push the button and the Other’s grow old and through their genteically designed offspring, they decide to eliminate the little toe gene….I’m not so good with science but I’m sure such a scenario is possible…of course, in the idea of throwing theories out there, it’s all possible…:)
Comment by El Prez — March 13, 2007 @ 2:59 pm
Yo Prez, you know that at some point we will see someone with four toes (that Sayid will undoubtebly notice) and the picture will fade to black then the words LOST will appear. It makes such a great cliffhanger. This website will be over run with bloggers hoping for an answer to the 4 toes man/woman. What I’m wondering is why Sayid makes mention of only the foot of the statue being left. That would seem to be an important point. Does it have something to do with the purge? The incident? Something else entirely???
Comment by cap10tripps — March 13, 2007 @ 3:27 pm
Maybe the toe is the next thing to go after the arm….Marvin Candle..One of Rouseau’s team members…Speaking of..I need to watch that episode again..That lady is off her rocker..she knows more than she’s telling….
Comment by El Prez — March 13, 2007 @ 7:09 pm
I agree about Rouseau. I think she’s in on something. Maybe she gave Ben Alex willingly, and now patrols the island for him. She may believe in a greater good and wanted Alex to have a better life, but she’s still conflicted with her love for her daughter.
Comment by cap10tripps — March 13, 2007 @ 9:14 pm
Just a note to clear up a few details. For thirdflr, sorry, I should have said what I meant by synthetic. I did not mean artificial, man-made but a combination of parts of elements into a whole. I was talking about scientific knowledge being used to help us understand the divine instead of seeking to nullify the existence of anything that contradicts the idea of us being here by random. A peaceful relationship instead of the nasty struggles between believers and non-believers. With regards to Osama, as a Canadian, I agree with you that he’s a right-wing fundamentalist but I see little moral distinction between 9/11 and the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld trashing of Iraq for their oil-mongering buddies. No offense to Americans, but two wrongs don’t make a right.
For Tom, I think it’s a little late to keep our religious beliefs under wraps as our brave friends Abrams, Cuse and Lindehof have dragged it into our living rooms and it refuses to go away.
For Cap10tripps, I agree we don’t always believe everything we say here. After all, we are sleep-deprived intellectuals who take our TV shows way too seriously. Lost is a wonderful game (note the chess analogies) keeping our neurons flexed, not a religious epic.
Comment by Odette — March 13, 2007 @ 9:42 pm
This will be my last post on THIS thread.
1 - To ORPhD….angels don’t die of gunshots. Angels would never do anything to contradict or paint GOD as bad person. You make a VERY plausible theory BUT GOD is NOT contradictable. While we as humans are not perfect and do not see the whole picture (Cap I am addressing your comment here too now) if GOD is GOD of the universe then HE is absolute and therefore “the end justify the means” is NOT possible. Other than those things you make a VERY, VERY good case!!!!!
2 - TOM, CAP while I in the context of a TV show anything is possible, in life there is ONLY ONE WAY. I happen to believe Christianity is the way. I am human and no I am not perfect and unlike a lot of bible thumping fundamentalists, I DO BELIEVE that there is only one way to interpret GOD’s meaning and NO MAN has it right 100%. I have chosen my way because I do BELIEVE it is correct. I have staked my life on it. But I will be the last person to whack you and say “my way or the highway.” I am very sick and tired of people blending alot of crap from Men and saying it is GOD. Like Locke, you have to have faith. GOD is not a pick and choose what is best for whatever you want. If so, it is not GOD but a religion that serves no purpose but of self. Selfishness is the ROOT of all evil. Hence why I think Locke is not on a crash course with leadership of the others.
3 - Odette, explanation is taken. However as a Canadian (I have high regards of you folk) you have earthly idea of the impact of 9/11 on our culture. While I have some issues with my president, he is still my president and he does have the moral courage to stick to his word, regardless of how unpopular it may be and see it thru. I do not think this war is about oil and profit. If so, why I am I paying so much for GAS!!!
I have to stake a belief that someone who has the fortitude to stick to his word no matter the cost and never waiver is a loyal man. (LOYALTY in my book is above ALL other traits in my book.) His decisions IF they are wrong will prove wrong in history books and if so we will pay the cost. Leaders, just like Ben take command, direct, expect and follow thru on action. Leaders can take us to hell (Hitler) or Victory (Patton).
As one who’s neighbor was beheaded by the hooded terrorists on TV and the internet, I KNOW there are EVIL people who want NOTHING and I mean NOTHING else than see us DIE. Liberal, Conservative, US or Canadian they don’t care. They want us dead. Period.
War is ugly. EVIL people do exist Tom. I do not think Bush is evil. He has done NOTHING TO compare with what those terrorists have done. NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry for the emotional outlet here. As a believer of GOD I forgive those terrorist but I can not and will not let them destroy another family, another father or mother and deprive a son or daughter from growing up not having that parent. I can live with that fact that my brother died for a reason that he wanted me safe free to be me. I can not live with the fact that some crazed jihad terrorist thinks he is serving GOD by tearing off my neighbors head with a SAW!
TOM forgive me for being so brutal in this post. But you hit a nerve. Forgive me brother, My anger is not at you personally.
I love LOST because I can escape…
Comment by thirdflr — March 14, 2007 @ 6:59 am
3rdflr,
I’m not going to dispute any words you stated above. Those are your beliefs and I think a lot of people would thank you for sharing them. These are trying times. I believe that a show like LOST can provide a platform for all walks of life to come together, share theories and philosophies and understand their fellow man a little better.
and to all the people who want to cry “It’s just a show!”, well it’s an art form…you would probably say that the Mona Lisa is just a painting or that the Bible and the Koran are just books…These things, like this show, inspire thought and emotions. Say what you will about the ratings but I don’t know of many other shows that can inspire this kind of out pour of ideas. Regardless if tomorrow the writers come out and say, it’s all a dream Vincent is having, it’s still refreshingly mind opening.
3rdflr, I know you said you aren’t posting anymore on this thread but your point to OR about angels being shot and killed: What if they are fallen angels? I go back to my original point of the Nephilim, angels who refused to bow to God’s creation of man, thus exercising their FREE WILL( I cap because it’s been mentioned so often on the show). What if this Island houses the descendants of the Nephilim? Descendants could surely be shot and killed..
Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown
Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Couple this with the Valenzetti Equation that predicts the last day and we can see why the Others are so interested in DHARMA research. If they could apply science to predict Judgement Day, then they could influence the numbers and change their doom.
But they will soon learn that you can’t change certain things. “The universe has a way of course correcting”.. that line could be interpreted as God’s plan…
I apologize to anyone who may be offended by Biblical references. The Bible has long been the inspiration for great storytelling. I just want to solve the mystery of a TV show that,in essence, has been created by my age peers….If it doesn’t pan out like I am currently theorizing, I hereby claim the patent on this idea and will sell it to JJ Abrams myself.
Comment by El Prez — March 14, 2007 @ 7:44 am
thirdflr, I completely see where you’re coming from (I’ll get to that later), but as mentioned previously, just because a theory _about_the_show_Lost_ is not in accordance with some particular worldview _about_life_, that does not refute the theory about the show. Additionally, I’m not sure my theory about the show is as contradictory to your beliefs as you think.
-The Others really don’t paint He/Him as a bad person. He is frequently mentioned as “brilliant” (which could be an understatement for omniscient).
-The one possible negative characteristic would be His unforgiving nature. In fact, a follow up Lostpedia search on He/Him after my original post revealed that this is the primary refutation to the theory that He/Him is God. However, think about it. With regard to _the_angels_ God could possibly be seen as unforgiving. There were no second chances for Lucifer and the 1/3 that followed him.
-With regard to angels dying, I’m sure you believe there is such a thing as spiritual warfare. “War” is an odd choice of words if there are no casualties. (I’ll admit though that I may be failing to remember a verse that specifically addresses the immortality of ALL angels).
-I don’t understand what you’re saying about how my theory causes God to be contradictory. If “killing” is equated with “contradictory,” then you need to read a little more Old Testament, brutha.
I didn’t mention this earlier because I really didn’t think it was relevant to the discussion, but so you understand where I am coming from I too am actually very much a man of faith, as I have been a Christian for almost 25 years now. In fact, I’ve not ruled out seminary at some point. I believe the Bible is true, and this faith exists while simultaneously being a man of science (engineering doctorate). When a TV show is potentially treading on what is to you and me sacred ground, it’s very easy to get sensitive. However, the writers are in no way bound to making Lost a Christian TV show (or a Muslim one, or a Buddhist one, etc.). They are simply borrowing what works for them and (probably) disregarding what doesn’t. Since this is the case, really none of my points in this post are even relevant. Plus, as you said, the main purpose of Lost is to ESCAPE.
I know you said you were done posting to this thread, but I do genuinely hope you read this, even if you choose not to respond.
On a different note, Bunny’s framework has also possibly reconciled some things for me with regard to Smokey. Maybe more on that in a future post…
Comment by ORPhD — March 14, 2007 @ 8:00 am
ORPhd - I have been to seminary, I left after seeing all the dogma. No MAN, no matter who they are can speak for GOD. But that is another blog…..
While I see your points on the angels, it has always been my interpretation that the angels were only to fall once. Maybe I missed something in Class. Need to go reread the Torah again.
On God being contractictory…What I meant is the ruthless beatings… But for sure, HELL is a much worse place than this island. Just not sure Jesus would be acting this way.
BUT BUT as you stated these Hollywood folks can do ANYTHING they want with the show, it IS their show!
As I stated forgive my rant, my nerves were touched.
Comment by thirdflr — March 14, 2007 @ 9:14 am
An interesting thought occurred to me. Even if the angels, by their very nature, cannot fall again, WHAT IF the angels themselves (who are not omniscient) aren’t actually aware of this fact? For example, the loyal angels saw what happened to the disloyal, and simply thought, “Whoah, I’d better not ever cross Him. He sure was unforgiving.” Sure it doesn’t necessarily line up exactly with theology, but it would be a VERY interesting path to take for entertainment purposes, IMO (which is really what we’re discussing here).
Anyway I apologize if I have turned this into a theological discussion…that really wasn’t my intent. On to Smokey…
Not all of this is new, but it does piece together different parts into a cohesive whole, I think. If this was suggested elsewhere, I apologize for repeating another’s theory. This is based on the assumptions that Smokey is definitely Cerberus, Bunny’s theory is essentially correct, and that my theory about the Others being angels has at least some merit (they are at least benevolent gatekeepers).
Basically, Cerberus and the Others have the same ultimate goal (keeping the underworld portal shut), but from totally opposite perspectives. The Others do it to protect the world, Smokey does it to prevent escape and ensure continued punishment of those in the underworld (I’m pretty sure this is the primary function of the mythological Cerberus). To an outsider (like, say, Rousseau) they would appear to be in cahoots. This would certainly also fit her definition of a security system (constantly monitoring to prevent certain behaviors).
If Smokey’s main goal is to keep the portal shut, and unlocking the secrets of the island is the key to opening it, anyone getting close to doing so would be a prime target. However, there’s a big catch: the underworld is not a place for the repentant. Thus, he only gets to take those who fail their test. Eko failed. Presumably Sayid and Locke are/were “next.” Sayid may have passed if the cat was a manifestation of Smokey. We’ll see about Locke.
Part of me hopes this isn’t true because then unlocking the secrets of the island would actually be a bad thing that we shouldn’t be looking forward to. But then again, that probably would make things much more interesting for the writers (”ok, we’ll give you all the answers you’ve been wanting…and destroy all of humanity in the process”).
Comment by ORPhD — March 14, 2007 @ 11:15 am
3rdflr, I really hope you don’t stop posting. Just because your beliefs are different than mine doesn’t mean I don’t want to know them. Your beliefs (just like everyone elses) in regards to this show may open doorways in my mind that have not yet been.
On that point in every discussion I’ve had on religion/god/beliefs it seems as if most all ideas are very similar, but the stories are told differently. In an earlier post I made mention of (El Prez) Eden and Shambala (TTiD) as being very similar places. Perhaps it is the same place just told differently in seperate stories from seperate religions. The writers and producers have obviously taken a ton of ideas from religion and science (which aren’t as different as they seem at first glance). I believe it’s important to take it all in and come up with your very on belief system (both in LOST and life in general). While you believe differently, I will respectfully disagree but also acknowledge that I could be wrong (when all is said and done). Finally, to me this is the beauty of this show. El Prez (as usual) said it best when comparing the “art” in this show to other mediums. Good art inspires thought and discussion. I’ve learned so much from the show, the bible, Salvador Dali, Tolkien, etc. I’ve also learned so much from everyone here, so please don’t be discouraged if somebody hits a nerve. Evolution probably begins in our nervous systems…
Comment by cap10tripps — March 14, 2007 @ 1:01 pm
Agree with you on that point Cap10tripps. Nerves are meant to be used. Most of us are rusty from years of political correctness and the age of instant gratification based on the idea that by eliminating anything unpleasant we will find happiness. Are we waking up from that party with a mega-hangover or what??
For thirdflr, now you understand how difficult it can be to look at things from a different perspective. As a Canadian, I don’t equate patriotism with any sort of loyalty towards the babbling idiots who soak up my tax dollars in Ottawa. I indulge in merciless criticism of all world leaders because of my faith, since I know how fallible and corrupt they are. I don’t put my faith in humans anymore, that belongs to God. I am sorry for your pain at the hands of terrorists and I assure you that I have suffered my own. Perhaps one day you will be able to face up to the abject lies that so discredited your country in the face of the world. There were no WMDs and no connection to Al-Qaeda thus no reason to invade Iraq. About gas prices, the point was to enrich the oil companies not make your life easier. My point however was to show that loss of faith forces us to come up with new ways of looking at things and that simply by engaging in the process, a paradigm shift, we find new answers that will serve for a time until we need to shift again. I feel no particular need to forgive you for anything because you expressed pain and dismay about some truly hard knocks. You said your piece in all honesty and I am fine with it.
For ElPrez, appreciate your perspective so much. I agree that the writers have taken ideas from the major religions and have even tracked down some obscure ones. Dharma the service of excellence, Cerberus protecting the underworld, redemption, moments such when Claire seeks to forge a bond beyond death with her son or Charlie goes completely Catholic icon etc. I also agree that the idea of an unforgiving God is counter to what God is as well. Also angels getting spinal tumours????
On another level, you have to be impressed with the scholarship the Lost writers demonstrate. I have never heard a complaint from anyone that their representation of all of these belief systems was off or ill-informed. Doing so much without offending anyone is quite a feat.
For ORPhd, problem is, although I find Said a very appealing figure, I did not feel his reget was sincere. I felt he conned a sympathetic wounded soul as he had quickly evaluated that these people were not desensitized to violence as he was. He could not tell them that he didn’t remember her because torture had become so routine that it was like asking if a supermarket cashier remembers a customer from last week. Unbearable to those who have suffered.
Once again I felt an Islamic connection with the cat. Cats are venerated by muslims as blessed and pure animals. Any cat lover will verify the true honesty of an animal that refuses to show affection just because you feed it. There was no way Said could look that cat in the face after remembering his con. So for me, the cat represents what’s left of his pathetic conscience now that he has made a lifestyle out of getting what he wants thru violence. The cat knows his repentance was phony and if that is the way out, then Said blew it.
Also, my understanding of the ultimate death is that it is spiritual not physical. So I’m not sure we’re talking about stone-cold stuff so much as the emptiness of an angel’s life once it has turned from the glory of God.
I know Lost operates on a symbolic level so I doubt that the death of angels would be a physical one.
As I stated earlier, my husband is a muslim scientist. His capacity to be at peace with this, to see the utter lack of randomness in the complex biochemistry of the cell and to praise God’s craftsmanship (sic) craftsdivineship?? through the scientific process is a blessing in this world where there is so much pressure to be Jack or Locke but not both.
ORPhd, I hope your faith brings you the same peace of mind.
Comment by Odette — March 14, 2007 @ 5:44 pm
and here was me thinking the producers said everything could be explained scientifically….
Comment by thomas muir — March 15, 2007 @ 7:49 am
Goodness gracious!
To think i was trying to prevent a firestorm!
Somehow, there are not messages about Fallen Angels.. I don’t think the show is going that Path, and I don’t think this is what Doc meant either. This is our own creation, and now we’re arguing over it. Lets get back to Doc’s theory! DOC! GREAT THEORY!
Comment by Tom — March 16, 2007 @ 10:35 am
We saw the Oceanic Flight 815 tail section plane survivors help each other and so did a mole sent by fake Henry Gale. Goodwin said to Ana Lucia Cortez “the children are fine, they’re better off now”, Ana Lucia asked Goodwin generally ” why do you think they do it, take some and not the rest?” Goodwin ” maybe they take them because they are the fit,strong,athletic, nonthreats. ‘Bonebreakers’ {as I call them. He broke Nathan’s neck ” Nathan was not a good person.” Ethan a mole sent to the Oceanic fuselage(was a multitasker (as I call him) was a medical person plumber and a bonebreaker too. They were others, killers and that makes fake Henry Gale a LIAR, unless, he really didn’t know the true nature of *Goodwin, *Ethan *Picket *Juliet *? * ? were and are KILLERS. HGale/Ben We saw the Oceanic Flight 815 tail section plane survivors help each other and so did a mole sent by fake Henry Gale. Goodwin said to Ana Lucia Cortez “the children are fine, they’re better off now”, Ana Lucia asked Goodwin generally ” why do you think they do it, take some and not the rest?” Goodwin ” maybe they take them because they are the fit,strong,athletic, nonthreats. ‘Bonebreakers’ {as I call them. He broke Nathan’s neck ” Nathan was not a good person.” Ethan a mole sent to the Oceanic fuselage(was a multitasker (as I call him) was a medical person plumber and a bonebreaker too. They were others, killers and that makes fake Henry Gale a LIAR, unless, he really didn’t know the true nature of *Goodwin, *Ethan *Picket *Juliet *? * ? were and are KILLERS. HGale/Ben < i suppose as that may not really be his name either ~ point is the citizens at Othersville Town Center DO NEED to replace their dead with fresh and willing bodies /a.s.a.p. as they waisted no time running to the Oceanic plane crash site. Hostiles Dharma Crashers battling it out, but the War is just gettin started and Locke” they attacked us sabatage us kill us we’re not the only ones on this island and we all know it!” Danielle’s warnings too ” you only have 3 choices RUN HIDE or DIE ! ! !”
~ * ~ * ~
‘fish biscuits r finger licken good!
hatch kittycat Nadia & Oceanic Vincent r playing LOST n Found w/smokething Rover meeowruffghrr’
Steph ss md
Comment by Steph — March 18, 2007 @ 10:07 am