Lost Spoiler - Par Avion - “Are you him?”
Thanks to DarkUFO and company for the following YouTube clip. Something very strange is going on with ABC’s marketing. This clip airs on the homepage of abc,com, and it plays automatically so you really can’t avoid it at least getting started. Sure, you can stop it, but if you don’t be prepared for MAJOR spoilers. I don’t mind spoilers myself, in this case though we are seeing a scene which should have been guarded, not let loose in the public domain. Intriguing, yes. Revealing, yes. Tread lightly, this is some info that settles a contention that has been brewing for several episodes now, clear into last season.
I saw that before, i thought that was extremely spoilerish. But wow! answers!
Comment by cerberus — March 10, 2007 @ 1:00 pm
I’m not sure what is so spoilery about this. Ben has said in the past that he is not in charge. So patchy claims he knows who is on the list, and…? So he knows their names, no big deal, he was most likley the one getting information from the outside world (read Jack’s file, Red Sox footage, etc.) so to say that he had a file on all of them is not a stretch. Nice clip, but I still have my socks on.
Comment by PurdueBen — March 10, 2007 @ 1:04 pm
well, for one, this tells us:
SPOILERS BELOW:
..exactly why those people were on the list. That in itself is a revelation.
Comment by cerberus — March 10, 2007 @ 1:06 pm
I agree that the reasons for being on the list have now been established, but these reasons have long been speculated. Additionally, there has to be more to this as many of the others are angrier, more insecure, scared, etc. than the survivors (Danny, Alex, Carl, Juliet, and others)
Comment by PurdueBen — March 10, 2007 @ 1:14 pm
posibly. either way, i bleieve this was purposefully released. maybe its been twisted, as we’ve seen before in promo’s?
Comment by cerberus — March 10, 2007 @ 1:25 pm
I don’t understand why this is such a big deal. It didn’t reveal anything of importance. So Kate isn’t on the list because she’s “flawed”? That’s just like saying “Nathan wasn’t on the list because he wasn’t a good person.” All that clip does in reinforce the notion that The Others are collecting what they consider “Good People.” We already knew Ben wasn’t the Big Boss. Even the bit about Locke at the end was something we already knew, that the Others have background info on The Losties. All that clip did was make me get excited for next weeks episode.
I have a much bigger problem with ABC showing clips like the one with Cindy. We can all agree that would have been much more exciting if we had been surprised.
That said, I am of the mind that if you don’t want to be Spoiled, stop looking at spoilers, but with that video playing the moment you log onto ABC’s web page, it doesn’t really give you a choice. And why are we still seeing Lost moments anyway? That was supposed to be something to get us through the hiatus.
Comment by Elisabeth — March 10, 2007 @ 1:27 pm
I’m scared! I don’t know if i want to watch it or not. What do you guys think, is it toooo spoilerish? will it ruin the episode for me?
Comment by Dr. nope — March 10, 2007 @ 1:59 pm
it won’t ruin it, a lot of it is reitteration of things we already know.
Comment by cerberus — March 10, 2007 @ 2:00 pm
Elisabeth, if you don’t consider this a big deal, my only conclusion is that you’re not interested in what’s been going on with the Others this whole time.
This short little clip confirms the following:
-Ben was telling the truth when he spoke about “their” leader
-the above also means that Ben truly was frightened due to this leader’s unforgiving nature
-the “good people” rhetoric that’s been tossed around doesn’t just refer to moral and ethical aspects of people, but also what may be referred to as “strength of character”, things such as how people approach unfamiliar situations and how they deal with emotions
-there’s a master list somewhere that contains the names of all the “good people”
*Huge* revelations. We’re reaching a tipping point, folks. The truth as to what the hell is going on cannot be far off at all!
A thought occurred to me in the shower this morning after I watched the clip in question: when 815 crashed, we saw Ethan and Goodwin get sent out to prepare lists containing names of the passengers, which were to be brought back, probably for comparison to the master list of “good” people. This happened immediately, as though it were standard procedure.
What if the same thing had been done with DHARMA, and this is how, ultimately, DHARMA started to splinter and came to declaring war on the so-called hostiles? What if some of the DHARMA recruits were actually from the Others society and had joined up to infiltrate the group to find more of the “good” people? If this were the case, the kidnappings and the like that we’ve seen the Others employ to bring people back into their society and give them a “better life” could’ve been happening then, been misconstrued as violent attacks, and resulted in the majority of remaining DHARMA members eventually deciding to purge the island of the hostiles?
Just a thought. Let me know what you people think.
Comment by Richard Lennox — March 10, 2007 @ 2:47 pm
that seems a good theory richard, definitely.
*ponders on that one…*
Comment by cerberus — March 10, 2007 @ 2:53 pm
One more thing to ponder upon:
Both Michail Bakunin and Kelvin Inman came from military background and were involved in middle-eastern conflicts.
Kelvin claimed to have joined the Dharma Initiative, and that might be in fact true, but Michail did’t.
However, the very first thing Kelvin asked Desmond was: “Are you him?” We really still don’t know who he meant by ‘him’ at that time.
Kelvin is also the only other person besides Michail to refeer to ‘hostiles’ (ok, they’re mentioned by Marvin Candle as well). How big are the chances Kelvin was also an Other, presiding over the Swan, much as Patchy was presiding over the Flame, both posing as Dharma? Quite small, but Kelvin’s “him” still bothers me a bit.
Comment by teataine — March 10, 2007 @ 4:17 pm
interesting, but i’ve always presumed radzinsky was an other. he knew an awful lot about the island, as is evident from the blast door map, and just suddenly killed himself? naw, i think he was an infiltrating other, kelvin twigged and killed him.
Comment by cerberus — March 10, 2007 @ 4:30 pm
I don’t think Kelvin was an Other. He was trying to repair and steal Desmond’s boat. If he was an Other, surely he/they could have taken it someplace else to repair (if they wanted it). Also, if an Other were in control of the Swan, why rescue an outsider and put him in the hatch with you. Especially if he wasn’t on the “list” and you weren’t planning on making him a member of the Others…
Comment by Baker — March 10, 2007 @ 4:50 pm
Kelvin wasn’t an Other. Radzinsky probably wasn’t either. The reason for them creating the blast door map was to determine the layout of the island and determine what was going on with the other DHARMA stations and the recent history of the island because they were both supposed to be stuck in the Swan due to the (now known to be phony) quarantine in place.
Comment by Richard Lennox — March 10, 2007 @ 5:15 pm
Point is, any Other wouldn’t do this, because they’d want to keep any remaining DHARMA staff resigned to as small a physical space on the island as possible and not interfere with whatever it is that the Others are up to.
Comment by Richard Lennox — March 10, 2007 @ 5:17 pm
You are incorrect about Kate being on “the list.” It has never been suggested that she was.
I believe you are confusing “Jacob’s list” referred to earlier this season with the list that Miss Klugh gives to Michael, which she was on.
The only person we can even hypothesize might be on Jacob’s list is Locke, since Ben told him last season that “he’s one of the good ones” or something like that. Also, he saved Locke’s life, presumably for a reason….
Comment by Rain — March 10, 2007 @ 5:47 pm
Richard Lennox: You are right. Whenever anything to do with the Others comes on, I plug my ears and close my eyes and yell “la la la I can’t hear you!” because really, the Others aren’t that big a part of the show and I have no interest in them. Please.
Everything you listed that you learned from this clip, I already knew. This clip confirms things, reveals nothing.
Comment by Elisabeth — March 10, 2007 @ 6:03 pm
How long did Mikail say he had been on the island? In the clip he says he was recruited when he was 24….yet somehow has a “fleeting memory” of a paralysed John Locke.
How far back to John’s flashbacks with Helen go, when he was still walking?
Does this add up time-wise?
Comment by Rain — March 10, 2007 @ 6:17 pm
What if Kelvin was an Other? It could be that Radzinsky was getting too dangerous and Kelvin had to kill him. He did manage to get that Bible out to the Arrow. He could have had a conflict with Mikhail.
Also, Pickett referred to Jack not being on Jacob’s list. Wonder who actually is on the list besides Locke?
Comment by Bob — March 10, 2007 @ 6:20 pm
Everything you listed that you learned from this clip, I already knew. This clip confirms things, reveals nothing.
You knew this, you say. Alright, I’ll bite: how?
Unless you have a contact who works on the show, I sincerely doubt you had any way of confirming whether Ben’s statements about “Him” were true or a charade. Until now, there’s also been *no* indication as to the purpose of the master list, *no* indication as to who goes on it or why, and *no* indication that it correlated directly with the “good person” hubub.
Now, if you’ve got some fantastic insight that allows you to confirm things that have not yet been revealed, by all means, please tell us *everything*, Elisabeth. Not just theories, speculation, or conclusions like the rest of us mere mortals deal with, but things that are can be confirmed and verified. We’d love to hear it.
Comment by Richard Lennox — March 10, 2007 @ 6:41 pm
Rain, consider that it’s possible that Mikhail’s reference to Locke doesn’t necessarily mean that he knew Locke at some point, just that he knows *of* him. As in, knowing facts about Locke, including that he suffered from paralysis.
That’s not ruling out him having personally known Locke in some prior capacity, of course, but just suggesting that Mikhail knows about some of the Losties in much the same way the rest of the Others seem to: by having access to some repository of information concerning specific people.
Comment by Richard Lennox — March 10, 2007 @ 6:46 pm
Does this open a huge plot hole? Pickett, in the mini-season, questioned why they took Jack Shepard, as “he wasn’t even on Jacob’s list”, which by implication means Kate and Sawyer were. Now Mikhail tells Kate she’s not on the list… and tells Locke he’s not on the list, although Ben told Locke he was one of the good ones, and was to be taken. Something doesn’t add up?
Comment by mj — March 10, 2007 @ 6:53 pm
Interesting, mj, but there’s quite a bit we don’t know about yet. We don’t know who Jacob is, and we don’t know what purpose his list serves. If there isn’t a plot hole, we can assume that Jacob’s list isn’t the same list Mikhail spoke of, and (though this is a bigger stretch) we can therefore assume that Jacob is *not* the “magnificent” leader referred to, though it’s also possible that Jacob could be the leader and maintain different lists under different pretenses. For instance, we could imagine that Pickett was referring to one of multiple lists, and which one in particular would be obvious to the other Others by context alone. We could also imagine that one list is held up by Jacob as being from some superior, outside, or otherwise divine source and contains information which forms a basis for Jacob creating his own list for a different purpose.
But we don’t even really know who or what Jacob is yet, so let’s not get too excited. Of course, I’m really, really hoping there’s no giant computer called J.A.C.O.B., because that would be damned infuriating.
Comment by Richard Lennox — March 10, 2007 @ 7:14 pm
Good catch, Richard. I made an assumptive leap that Jacob was “him” and at this point we still have no evidence that is the case… that eases my concern about a plot hole there.
Though it also increases my frustration at trying to make sense of everything…
Comment by mj — March 10, 2007 @ 8:41 pm
Hey, relax, there’s still plenty of room for a gaping plot hole.
Comment by Richard Lennox — March 10, 2007 @ 9:23 pm
“there’s still plenty of room for a gaping plot hole. ;)”
That’s what she said….
Comment by El Prez — March 10, 2007 @ 10:02 pm
goatsesayswot?
Comment by Richard Lennox — March 10, 2007 @ 10:18 pm
Ah, yes, the inevitable comparison to Heroes.
Comment by Jello — March 11, 2007 @ 12:10 am
mj wrote: “Does this open a huge plot hole? Pickett, in the mini-season, questioned why they took Jack Shepard, as “he wasn’t even on Jacob’s list”, which by implication means Kate and Sawyer were.”
Picket said they shouldn’t have trusted Jack so much, having him even operate on Ben, he didn’t like that idea. And implicating Kate and Sawyer weren’t on the list eiter, since while saying this, he was on his was to shoot Sawyer (and possibly Kate). I think that squares up.
Jack has the potential to be on the list, if people can be added or removed. Achara tells him he is a great man, a leader, but that makes him angry and alone (flawed). Now, by “joining” the Others, I presume we will see him find his place amongst them. “He walks amongst us, but he is not one of us,” says Isabel refeering to his tatoos…”That’s now what it means,” replies Jack.
Mr. Eko was to be taken, but then they obviously changed their minds. John…who knows…Ben says he’s one of the good ones, but Patchy doesn’t seem to think so. I think Locke still has some issues to resolve and learn a lot to become a “good one”, but he’s a potential recruit, too I believe.
Comment by zek — March 11, 2007 @ 4:37 am
Who, but those of us who enjoy spoilers, goes online in search of answers? The big reveal to me for this episode was already leaked on spoilerfix.com. This clip revealed little that was not already known by anyone who would see it online anyway. As it has been pointed out, Ben is not “the one,” and we’ve all been assuming that Jacob, whoever he is, is “the one.” What was revealed was that the Others know great details about the Losties prior to their life on the island, but not about as much as you’d think they about THE ISLAND. Mikhel knew John Locke was “para…” but doesn’t understand why he no longer is. That one line is the spoiler of the clip.
Comment by Merlboroman — March 11, 2007 @ 5:16 am
The frame of reference is visitors to abc.com, not people who actually surf for spoilers. Sure most of it was known to people who surf for spoilers, but when was the last time you went to ABC.com to get a spoiler, outside of some vague calculated comment in the podcast?
Comment by docarzt — March 11, 2007 @ 6:14 am
yes, i don’t think the location in which thery posted it was very fair. I’m sure some people now feel spoiled.
Comment by cerberus — March 11, 2007 @ 6:35 am
Doc,
Guess I missed the deadline for the Ben interview questions ’cause it won’t let me post another one. But, if possible, please add this question to those being voted on:
In the S2 Finale, you said, “We’re the good guys.” It that’s true, have we met the “bad guys” yet?
Comment by gusteaux — March 11, 2007 @ 8:06 am
Sorry, but I just don’t see the “Major” spoilers that have been revealed. For one, we would have to assume that Patchy is now telling the truth when we know he was lying from the get go. So that would include everyting he said about the list, who was on it and why they were on it. Secondly, knowing the Losties past has already been revealed. And if the Others have outside world contact then knowing that info would be expected.
Comment by Silky — March 11, 2007 @ 8:26 am
The guy at the top must be Alvar Hanso? After Mr. Friendly quoting him in The Hunting Party, etc. Maybe?
Also, what’s the character connection the other trailers promised us? Jack/Claire? Or more boringly (perhaps), Locke/Mikhael?
Comment by Tom — March 11, 2007 @ 8:36 am
I guess the idea behind the post is to reassue people who go online, mostly to catch episodes they missed, need reassurance that “answers” are forthcoming. I agree with you Doc, that this negative media-blitz is getting out of hand. Though, what can you expect when you have a meteoric rise to the top your first season.
Comment by Merlboroman — March 11, 2007 @ 11:43 am
Merlboroman, it’s also got a lot to do with people who hear something they’ve suspected but has actually not been dealt with on the show, and suddenly they forget that most of their theorization came from within. “Oh, I already ‘knew’ that, how boring.”
Remember folks: spoilers from non-official sources are just glorified rumors. Some may be more trustworthy than others, but don’t get too carried away. We all know that the production team has mounted foiler campaigns in the past and we can’t forget this.
Comment by Richard Lennox — March 11, 2007 @ 1:43 pm
In defense of Elisabeth, Richard - it was easy to know everything that was in that clip. Do you watch Lost? Dialogue is not definite proof of anything. Why is it that you do not believe Ben when he says he’s not the leader, but you trust Patchy when HE says Ben isn’t the leader?
Either a) both are lying, and we learned nothing new or b) both are telling the truth and we learned nothing new.
In the case of “the list” what did you learn from that clip that you didn’t know before? It’s pretty clear the list was of “good people” - that goes all the way back to the flashback of the tail section when Goodwin and Ana Lucia have their pre-fight dialogue.
You say “*no* indication” but that’s not the case at all. Then of course, you go on to flame Elisabeth for saying in short what I just explained to you now.
I wish I had a nickel for every person on this site who said “Lost is for intellectuals.” I guess you proved them wrong.
Comment by icy_one — March 11, 2007 @ 5:52 pm
Your point about believing Patchy vs. believing Ben is valid, icy_one. Considering my speech about not believing certain statements, you’re right, I should be “practicing what I preach”.
Despite this, I could not disagree more with the rest of your post.
There’s been no previous mention of a CENTRAL list before in the show. There have been multiple lists in the show, but this is the *first* reference to a master or primary list which contains the names of *all* the good people…not just people from flight 815, but from a decidedly larger body of people. It’s also the first clear-cut mention that this is the key to deciding not just to who gets taken from survivor groups, but who gets recruited for the Others as well. This *HAS NOT* been referenced or even strongly alluded to before. Check your facts.
Theory validation is much more important than theorizing in and of itself. Anybody can sit around and make inferences, but a theory is only as useful as the facts which support its likelihood of being correct. Without support, it’s merely glorified guesswork.
Comment by Richard Lennox — March 11, 2007 @ 6:37 pm
These still aren’t -facts- Richard. They’re unreliable comments from characters who are known to lie, cheat and scheme for unknown reasons. And when Patchy says “the list” how do you know he’s referring to ONE list? Maybe he’s referring to Ethan’s list - this would make the most sense given the characters around him - and that would make Goodwin’s list a second list and Jacob’s list a third list, or the set containing both lists.
And we knew in the tail section flashback that the list was for taking survivors - Ana Lucia I believe comes to the very same conclusion.
Comment by icy_one — March 12, 2007 @ 3:50 am
You’re only not understanding what I’m saying because you’re reading only what you want to read. I’ll be as clear as I possibly can.
Are you attempting to tell me that the mention of a singular list doesn’t happen in the clip? Go watch it again. It is a *fact* that this happens. This doesn’t make the information given necessarily true, but it happens.
Patchy is in fact referring to *one singular list*. He says,
“…because you are not on the list.” Whether telling the truth or not, he’s talking about ONE LIST. Not “you are not on the lists,” not “you are not on one of our lists”, but “you are not on *the list*.” From what he says, this ONE LIST list contains the names of all the people who are not “flawed” according to the standards of the man responsible for selecting and recruiting his people and ultimately bringing them to the island.
True or not, this is new information which has not been covered before. Here it is again, item by item:
-the man at the head of the Other’s society is responsible for deciding who should be incorporated into their society
-this man makes his decision based upon particular standards; those meeting these standards are put onto a central, singular list
-anyone who is “flawed” according to these standards does not get put onto the list
-harboring powerful negative emotions seems to be a deciding factor in terms of who is “flawed”
These ideas have not been dealt with before. Until now, none of these ideas have been mentioned, suggested, or even alluded to by any character’s dialog, textual easter eggs in the show, or by anyone involved with the program speaking either on record or leaking information anonymously.
Even if Patchy is lying, it is unlikely that this information has no sort of basis in reality (well, the “reality” of a fictional television program, that is), because the spoken lies we’ve been given by the Others before have been based upon truths, just truths that have been misappropriated (i.e. Ben’s story about being Henry Gale). It’s also unlikely to be 100% lies because the notion of certain people being “flawed” works as a direct opposite to the “good people” rhetoric that we’ve heard from Goodwin and Ben.
Comment by Richard Lennox — March 12, 2007 @ 6:24 am
I haven’t watched the clip or read the comments… I just wanted to thank you for letting us know the ABC website is playing a spoilerish clip. I head over there to check out the podcasts, etc and would have been bummed to be unwantingly (ok, so that’s not a word) spoiled by their advertising department. Kudos, Doc!
Comment by LostMyMarbles — March 12, 2007 @ 9:10 am
Richard- You are making some far reaching assumptions. You say that Patchy mentions “the list” and not “one of the lists”. So from that you infer that there is one central list? I too believe there is one list but you seem to say that it is a different list than the one Ben, Tom, Ethan and Goodwin are involved in. Well if there is only one list to begin with Patchy would not need to say “one of the lists”. We know that Ethan and Goodwin obtained their own individual lists so that would make 2 lists. But if the lists were used for the same reasons, then the ultimate goal is to complete 1 list. However you seem to think that the lists those 2 obtained are different than the list that Patchy is talking about. I’m not sure how you can reasonably assume that?
Comment by Silky — March 12, 2007 @ 11:12 am
Those other lists *are* different, because the scopes are different. The lists Ben commissioned Goodwin and Ethan to make consisted of people to be taken from the respective survivor groups. The scope of the list Patchy speaks of extends further, because it contains the names of non-”flawed” individuals who are to be recruited into the Others’ society. We already know that people not from the crash and not native to the island have been integrated into the Others’ society. Yes, some assumptions are involved, but they’re not huge stretches of logic. They’re still based upon statements.
Comment by Richard Lennox — March 12, 2007 @ 12:06 pm
But let’s be fair. We only got a glimpse of what Ben instructed Ethan and Goodwin to do. Since the instructions were simple, we can logically assume that they knew what the nature of the lists should contain. Just because Ben didn’t go into detail about what qualities the people on the list should have, doesn’t mean that it differs from what Patchy is talking about. And remember Ethan and Goodwin were still undercover and they wouldn’t reveal much about what they were really looking for. Since the Losties know what Patchy is about he doesn’t have to be secretive about his intentions. Also he could just be blowing smoke.
Comment by Silky — March 12, 2007 @ 7:52 pm
The list Goodwin created was found by the tailies and contained the names of the nine people taken from the tail section survivors. Ethan never completed his list (recall his chiding by Tom). Mikhail’s statements specifically say that the people surrounding him aren’t on “the list”. Mikhail could not reference a list that wasn’t created, and none of the people surrounding him were on Goodwin’s list. Therefore, I’d say it’s damned likely that the lists Ethan and Goodwin were supposed to create were to be subsets of the list Mikhail is referring to, which must be the master list maintained by “Him”.
Unless Mikhail’s statements are complete lies, of course, which remains a possibility. However, thus far, the lies pushed by the Others have been limited in nature and have always had a remarkably high percentage of truth to them. I’m hesitant to doubt his statements about lists, at least, because these statements could not be used to lead the search party into a trap.
No doubt things will become more clear when this week’s episode airs, and each of us will be proven wrong to a degree. Until then, Silky, at the very least, please accept that my speculation is indeed based in logical conclusions drawn from what we’ve seen in terms of previous episodes and current preview clips. I choose to look for potential leads when they crop up, and I welcome their presence…even lies presented to us tend to serve some purpose or have a ring of truth to them. What’s wrong with that?
Comment by Richard Lennox — March 12, 2007 @ 9:43 pm
firstly…i dont feel spoiled by this teaser, thankfully,..im actualy more excited by the episode now..i was expecting a certain brother/sister answer, that thankfuly i’ll have to wait for…i agree that nothing was ‘revealed’ by this…an tbh, nothing was particularly confirmed either!
secondly….I assumed, since the jack/ben opperation malarky that those 3 where not on ‘THE LIST’ meaning the ‘lets capture and indoctrinate them’ list, but mearly on another hastily assembled list, made due to nessesity…i.e jack was there to save ben…kate to convince jack..sawyer to coerce kate etc etc…so i dont think thats a plot hole really
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