The Tail Section

114 Comments »

1. 

   Yes, well, but… is not this kind of post the proof that things are not as well as we would wish?

   Comment by LuckyLocke — February 16, 2007 @ 2:46 pm

2. 

   Mate, thats exactly right, these people that call themselves “fans of LOST” keep complaining, that “oh we didnt get to see —— (whatever that thing may be)” and then the press see this, and decide that its a good time to start Bashing LOST again.

   Theres no need to for these fans to complain, the writers have a very structured way of approaching a storyline, and with such an in-depth show like LOST, its hard to concentrate on the things that everyone wants, so they have to pick and change (thats why they have an episode centred on one character each week, so theres a good balance).

   Ratings dropped off mostly because of Valentines day, but i’ve also heard there was a power-outage down most of the east coast (correct me if im wrong, im not sure), so thats no doubt going to knock out a lot of fans for that night. Hopefully LOST bounces back next week because i believe that episode was one of the best LOST episodes we’ve had (ever)

   Comment by Paul — February 16, 2007 @ 2:47 pm

3. 

   No lucklocke… this is the kind of post that says lets move beyond looking for the worst in everything and get on with the praise. Are you on-board, or not?

   Comment by docarzt — February 16, 2007 @ 2:48 pm

4. 

   Thats right things arent as we’d have liked, and why you may ask, because of these sooks, who havent got the patience to sit and watch an in-depth show like LOST, they want there shows like 24 (Its a great show but its a bit more straight forward than LOST), theyw want things spelt out for them in the simplest possible way. Thats not what LOST is about.

   The true fans of LOST will understand what i mean, because they will forever stick with the show

   Comment by Paul — February 16, 2007 @ 2:50 pm

5. 

   We need everyone on board, im on board, you all should be too

   Comment by Paul — February 16, 2007 @ 2:52 pm

6. 

   Amen, Doc!

   Comment by mike — February 16, 2007 @ 2:56 pm

7. 

   AMEN!!!!!! Thank you doc!!!! I agree completely 100%. Anyone who puts down the show or thinks its not as good anymore either has no attention span like you said or else never was a real fan. I hate when people complain that we’re not getting answers and that they keep adding more questions. THAT IS WHAT MAKES THE SHOW SO GREAT!! I love everything about the show and especially the fact that the writers keep us guessing and theorizing! I love the fact that at the end of every single episode when LOST pops on the screen that I am DYING for the next episode! That is the fun part! If we knew everything what would be the point of sites like this where fans can come together and discuss? Thank you for writing such a great post. I really hope the real fans of LOST start to stick up for the show instead of complaining like all the ridiculous critics. I’m in til the end as well!!!

   Comment by Shiloh — February 16, 2007 @ 3:00 pm

8. 

   Mike totally stole my comment.

   I actually said “amen” out loud when I finished reading it.

   I get sick of the press bashing too, but it’s no where near as bad as when “fans” bash the show. You don’t put down a book just because the second chapter wasn’t as good as the first. You keep reading and if it sucks at the end, then you can complain.

   Comment by matt — February 16, 2007 @ 3:02 pm

9. 

   I’m in! Lost 4-ever!!

   Comment by Lost the Cereal — February 16, 2007 @ 3:12 pm

10. 

    Yeah, man, I am on board and, obviously, fan of LOST. But I consciously don’t want to fall in that acritic hole of fundamentalism. If something is poor, I will point it, I will express my point of view. That’s because I think LOST is Intelligence. The day I would see Lost fans fall in that hole I will consider that series would be degenerating.

    I am not from USA like most of you are, I supose. I am from Europe, and in my country we say: “Everyone who really cares about you will make you cry”.

    LOST is, by far, the best series ever. And LOST makers are too clever to deserve something like fundamentalism. Being acritic is, in my opinion, another way of insulting the series.

    Comment by FortunateLocke — February 16, 2007 @ 3:17 pm

11. 

    EXACTLY.

    I’ve never really understood the ever-present wish for Lost to do poorly. It almost seems like the entertainment media is threatened somehow by the artistic quality or breadth of the show. They keep searching for an Achilles Heel.

    But I’ve finally developed a theory. (Because you know we Lost fans are all about the theories.)

    The actors are excellent - excellent enough to share a scene instead of demanding the audience’s full attention each time they have a line. The detail and depth in the performances are mostly unparalleled in a medium full to the brim with ham-fisted dramatic acting and two-dimensional comedic stereotypes.

    The directing (which never seems to get mentioned) is excellent. The show is NOTORIOUS for its consistently gripping pace, and you just can’t maintain that without quality directing.

    The writing is excellent. Packing this much suspense, story, character development, mystery, philosophy, science and mythology into a fictional world so engaging yet disorienting is something heretofore unseen in episodic television. (And I say that as a lifelong Twin Peaks fan.)

    My theory?

    This show pisses people off. It doesn’t tie everything up in a neat bow. It leaves the storylines as messy as real life. It mythologizes horribly flawed heroes. It leaves huge, mind-blowing questions completely unanswered without even a promise to answer them later. It works it’s viewers brains and empathy in equal doses.

    Worse?

    It doesn’t win awards. It doesn’t have huge movie-star actors. And the actors it DOES have are talented yet humble. It just doesn’t play the “Hollywood Television” game in the least. No one involved seems interested in producing a “hit”. They all seem, instead, to have devoted themselves to the production of something so terrifyingly rare in televison:

    Art.

    And, in that sense, the television production community SHOULD be threatened. Because the fans of Lost recognize that, and we’re not going to settle for less so easily in the future.

    Comment by Skidge — February 16, 2007 @ 3:23 pm

12. 

    You’re calling this the media’s all time low for reporter’s integrity? lol

    Comment by Anon — February 16, 2007 @ 3:33 pm

13. 

    Wasn’t it still #1 in its time slot?

    In one sense I feel like this might actually be kind of a good thing in a twisted way - maybe, if they think that ratings might decline further, network execs will let Damon and Carlton end it in a couple of seasons rather than have it go on indefinitely, losing more and more viewers.

    Comment by JoshSpazJosh — February 16, 2007 @ 3:33 pm

14. 

    I know that the time change was killer. I have to be up early in the morning so I always have to watch it online. I’d say that’s where the majority of te lost audience went. hehe..lost audience…punny.

    Comment by Anon — February 16, 2007 @ 3:36 pm

15. 

    ‘You’re calling this the media’s all time low for reporter’s integrity? lol’

    Actually I called it amongst these particular journalists.. and I put my name on it anon, guess one of us stands behind his opinion a little stronger than the other…

    Comment by docarzt — February 16, 2007 @ 3:40 pm

16. 

    yes, you do.

    Comment by Anon — February 16, 2007 @ 3:52 pm

17. 

    Posted in the televisionwithoutpity.com Bitterness Thread. I’ll probably end up getting flamed, but oh well. Your comments are spot-on.

    Comment by David — February 16, 2007 @ 4:17 pm

18. 

    Well said mate, I TOTALLY garee with you.

    Mark

    Comment by Mark Moran — February 16, 2007 @ 4:21 pm

19. 

    LONG LIVE LOST!!! A shout from the fans in all South America!

    Comment by Lost_in_Brazil — February 16, 2007 @ 4:37 pm

20. 

    I agree wit ya, Doc, that the mainstream media can shove it, but I kind of take exception to the fact that you have a problem with fans criticizing the show. I’ve invested enough time in the show that if I want to say that the mini-season sucked in my opinion, that’s my right. I don’t wish lost would go off the air; it IS my favorite show. But if anything, us hard core LOSt fans have MORE of a right to speak up. Will I watch it to the end? Yes. Will I voice my frustrations if I feel like it? Yes. It’s a free country after all. Bash the media, not the fans..

    Comment by olnumba7 — February 16, 2007 @ 4:55 pm

21. 

    I LOVE you for writing this. I agree with you on pretty much every single point. I am a Lostie through and through and I know that even if some eps seem lacklustre or whathaveyou, I have faith that it will still end up going somewhere awesome. I will support Lost until the day it goes off the air (at which point I’ll break out the dvds)

    Comment by Nick — February 16, 2007 @ 5:09 pm

22. 

    I’m so sick of the ratings are down” crap, too. If the critics even bothered to talk to actual fans, they’d know that a lot of us have viewing parties. They’d also know most of us TiVo it. And really, who gives a damn about the ratings anyway? The show has a set end date. Screw ‘em if they don’t like it.

    Comment by Jen — February 16, 2007 @ 5:34 pm

23. 

    Nicely put Doc. I’ve felt the headline on the AP article was not an entirely accurate characterization of the content and context. Although Lost’s ratings are down, there were seasonal and time slot explanations. It still is a pretty solid top 20 or 30 or whatever show, which in Hollywood makes a hit anyway. Because the Lost season started late, there also is a good chance that towards the end, when the competition goes into repeats that ratings will go up. In addition, even at a slightly lower ratings level, the Lost franchise is considerably more valuable than a show that might garner higher ratings because of all the ancillary interest and revenue sources.

    Comment by Contender — February 16, 2007 @ 5:59 pm

24. 

    I agree 100%. This is my first time posting ANYTHING on any forum; but LOST is an artful, well-thought-out show, and is worth a positive comment or two. The problem is not LOST: the problem is that tv viewers (and critics, and culture, for that matter) have gotten LAZY, and want everything shoved in the proverbial microwave and fed to them right away. Mystery is great because it is MYSTERIOUS!!! This show is a HUGE mystery. Duh.

    I hated a few of the mini-season episodes, but KNEW that, in the big picture, it would all pay off (I hated season 2 when it started, but couldn’t get enough by the end and have already worn out our S2 DVD). In retrospect, everything about this show (except Eko’s death, and Paolo and Nikki, of course!) prove to be great storytelling. And, frankly, with the last two episodes, retrospect is not required: they were genius upon first look, and better with subsequent viewings!

    LOST is so NOT lost, it’s almost TOO good.

    There. I’ve vented. I am happy now. God bless.

    Comment by tomfishstory — February 16, 2007 @ 6:17 pm

25. 

    Ooops. My last sentence didn’t make sense…

    Lost is so NOT lost, it’s ridiculous; the show is almost TOO good.

    That’s better…

    Comment by tomfishstory — February 16, 2007 @ 6:20 pm

26. 

    The only people I’ve seen bash the show are the press. Every fan I’ve talked to, and it’s a lot, because I spent the entire hiatus getting my Lost fix by LIVING on Lost forums, is still enchanted and obsessed with the show. My feeling is the media is trying to create something to talk about. I plan to continue with what I was doing, which is ignoring them, because I know, and you know, that this will always be one of the best shows ever. Who cares what the media says? These are people who spend their days reporting on Paris Hilton, for god sake. If we stopped reading the articles, they would find something else to write about. Besides, they would never cancel Lost. Could you imagine? Millions of pissed off Lost Nerds (myself included) rioting outside ABC Headquarters?
    Actually…. I’d kinda like to see that….

    Comment by Isabelle — February 16, 2007 @ 6:33 pm

27. 

    All I can say is THANK YOU docarzt! Thank you for flat out saying what needed to be said!

    Comment by poyopoyo91 — February 16, 2007 @ 6:44 pm

28. 

    I don’t think you’re babbling. I love Lost and I am tired of the bashing too. The media jumps on bad news and runs with it. I guess whoever comes up with these statistics are not taking into account the number of people who record Lost or download it and watch it later? I like to watch it later so I can zip through the commercials.

    Comment by Cassie — February 16, 2007 @ 6:59 pm

29. 

    DocArzt, I work at a newspaper, and the AP wrote a scathing story that should be published overnight (2/17) about the dip in “Lost”’s ratings. It’s honestly bull, I think.

    So “Lost” had a dip in the ratings, big deal. My opinion, as a die-hard fan and as a realist? It’s not going anywhere. ABC has too much faith in it and too much respect for it.

    Not only that, take a look at shows like “Crossing Jordan,” “George Lopez,” “King of the Hill,” etc. that don’t get the best of ratings but have a loyal enough fan base that they get brought back every year. “Lost”’s ratings are way above those shows, so that, combined with the fact that “Lost” producers and ABC have discussed a finite length of time for the show, makes me think it’s not going to prematurly “burn out” like “The O.C.” did, or “Dawson’s Creek” or “Moonlighting” or a hundred other serialized dramas before did.

    I’d also like to point out that the creator of the other show that premiered with “Lost,” “Desparate Housewives,” also has addressed he wants a finite end to his show, seven years in most articles I’ve read.

    So yeah, despite all the bashing, “Lost” will stay on the appropriate amount of time, I believe. And I’ll stay until the end.

    Comment by Jeff — February 16, 2007 @ 7:49 pm

30. 

    i agree and disagree. the media has to write about something. the hype around certain shows always results in a backlash. the problem is, the producers of lost did this to themselves. last year’s finale was so fantastic, people were so geared up about the show, and they kind of took advantage of it. they got cocky and started toying with the audience with the ‘lost experience’, which was a giant waste of time, and then returned with 6 episodes that maybe had a handful of interesting moments, only to be off the air for two more months. they spent virtually no time with the characters we have come to love, and introduce two new characters in the most awkward, poorly executed way (reminded me of the poochy episode on ‘the simpsons’). audiences don’t like to get jerked around, and people are starting to feel that. the poorly realized start of the third season just felt like they were making it up as they went along, and were content to just waste our time. i am watching these newer shows with some trepidation…they kind of have to earn my devotion back.

    Comment by mariootsa — February 16, 2007 @ 8:05 pm

31. 

    Wednesdays night show was one of the best if not the best. V-Day did hurt the ratings, a lot of people TiVo it, I’m sure it was still the number 1 TiVoed show. Your right the average joe does want everything answered abd Lost does not do that and that’s what makes it best show ever. i will be watching until the last second of the final and then I will go back and watch every episode again!!!

    Comment by JohnW — February 16, 2007 @ 8:19 pm

32. 

    What I fail to understand is WHY the press is making such a big deal of the 2 million viewers that didn’t tune in at 10pm. It was Valentine’s Day for chrissake! 10pm.. Valentine’s Day.. If I had the oppurtunity for a little hoo-haw, I’d'a caught LOST on Tivo!

    Comment by Jon — February 16, 2007 @ 8:20 pm

33. 

    “Posted in the televisionwithoutpity.com Bitterness Thread.”

    Be careful what you ask for, you just may get it. And then you’ll all find your Kool Aid tasting a little Bitter.

    You can all deny it, whistle past the graveyard, but there are SERIOUS problems with Lost. And it’ll take more than a rah rah post to solve them. Poor writing, single dimensional characters, inconsistncies, contradictions, retcons, illogical character actions. The criticism of Lost is quite justified.

    Comment by Slone — February 16, 2007 @ 8:46 pm

34. 

    When will DocArzt stop writing these things? He’s an annoying pseudo-intellectual snob, and way too defensive. Please, no more.

    Comment by Jello — February 16, 2007 @ 9:18 pm

35. 

    Not to mention his writing is full of worn out cliches and meme writing.

    Comment by Jello — February 16, 2007 @ 9:22 pm

36. 

    Great article, DocArzt, I enjoyed reading it. Your analogy for Lost as a whole being like a novel is brilliant, and oh so true.

    I, for one, think the dropoff this week had a lot to do with Valentine’s day. Weren’t viewership numbers down across the board? As for the time change… they still don’t have a way to measure accurately how many people time-shift the show, do they? I know TiVo tracks usage, but I think there are probably far more folks like me who have the cheapy $7/month DVR provided by the local cable company.

    As for all the frustration expressed by Lost fans on discussion forums. While it can be heartbreaking, I look at it this way. What other shows connects with it’s fans in such a way–is so important to them–to engender such rabid controversy and discussion? I think it says something of how powerful and successful this show is! How much worse if there weren’t enough people talking about it to be worth mentioning.

    While I’ve also found myself frustrated at times, I think a good part of it has to do with how the show is promoted, both by the network and the showrunners. For example, I think FBYE was one of the most brilliant episodes of all three seasons so far. What they told us going in was, “find out what happened to Desmond when he turned the key and the hatch imploded!” What they gave us was incredibly compelling, whether you interpret it as time travel, or what I think was some kind of near-death experience or vision/flasback. It was a huge addition to the mythology and mystery of the show, and provided so much fodder for thought and discussion… but in the end, what happened when he turned the key? We know what he saw “flash before his eyes,” but many folks are expecting to see what happened to the hatch and the island… how Eko, Locke, and Desmond woke up in the jungle when by definition the hatch imploded on itself… why Desmond woke up naked. I think it’s those kinds of things. Answers are promised, and certainly many are delivered, but in a different way than fans expect. And some people will never be satisfied until they get the physical answers. Me? I’m curious about them, but I’ll take 60minutes of surreal FBYE over watching a building explode any day.

    Comment by Mark — February 16, 2007 @ 9:47 pm

37. 

    I know one reason why the ratings are down. I have spoken with several people at my office and they just can’t take the waiting week to week for a new episode must less the break between episode 6 and 7. Guess what they have decided to do……………..they are going to deal with the agony of waiting until its released on DVD; then they get 22 or 24 straight episodes. Remember this is the gratify me now age. People will watch Lost. People will love Lost. Some people will watch it on DVD because they just don’t want to wait until next week. BTW, if you guys are old enough to remember Twin Peaks went through the same thing. It was a ratings darling in its first season. It was critically aclaimed and nominated for 13 Emmys. ABC moved it to Saturday nights at 9pm CST and it tanked. SO next time you want to complain about the time change remember they could move it to Saturday.

    Comment by Gary — February 16, 2007 @ 9:47 pm

38. 

    Hey Doc, excellent article and why “fans” get their major kicks out of trashing a show they supposedly love is something I don’t understand. Yes, everything is criticizeable because nothing is perfect, but if your sole joy is pointing out everywhere your favorite show went wrong then you’re not much of a fan, more the antithesis of a fan. And how anyone could go off about poor writing and acting after “Flashes Before Your Eyes” is something well beyond me.

    Comment by ind06 — February 16, 2007 @ 9:51 pm

39. 

    BEST TAILSECTION ARTICLE YET!!!! its our job as fans to stop the bitching!!!

    Comment by bf — February 16, 2007 @ 10:03 pm

40. 

    Sorry but that’s an absolutely ridiculous article. Many FANS do think Lost has lost it and are just as passionate about the show as you. Just because you still think Lost is great doesn’t mean MILLIONS of fans who have decided not to watch or want to voice their criticisms should shut up and go away.

    Comment by Michael Bradley — February 16, 2007 @ 10:08 pm

41. 

    Michael Bradley–are you really saying that you’ve stopped watching the show, but yet continue to go online to read these articles, and furthermore, put forth the effort to post a response? I just want to make sure I understand your viewpoint–am I correct in understanding that you consider yourself one of the millions of fans who’ve decided not to watch that you mention in your comment? I just find that so curious…

    Comment by Mark — February 16, 2007 @ 10:14 pm

42. 

    Doc, I have posted my comments on this site. I AM in ’til the end.

    BUT I am honest in saying no one around me any more are watching or into the show.

    I AM frustrated that regardless of the plot of ‘the novel’ that no one on the show can ask the basic questions from ANYONE they come into contact with. (if you want to know what I am talking about read my earlier post on another thread) Hey I know nor do I want to read the last pages of the novel in chapter 3 but neither do I expect the main characters of the novel to be so incredibly STUPID as to have zero common sense either.

    A great writer can keep the suspense going without making the characters seem dumb by not asking Des EVERYTHING HE KNOWS, or LIBBY, or Ekco or Ben or….Mr. Friendly or Juliet. One can NOT assume all this comparing of mutual information amoung all parties once discovered would have revealed a TON of connections and solved some questions and routed the LOSTies in a different directions. AFTER all they are STRANDED without food, beds, soap, showers, clothes FIRST!!!! The fact they are LOST somewhere in the South Pacific is absolutely, infatically IMMATERIAL!!! Make it believable man… After all if I was on that island I could care less about why someone is snatching the kids or what is smokie or the polar bear. I want food and shelter THEN I want to know WHO then I want know how can I get off of here.

    DO NOT GET ME wrong here I am not seaking a Survivor show. I as the viewer WANT to know all the mysteries and complex side stories and 6 degrees of …. but I seriously have to question the intelligence of the characters of the show to not know they are FREAKING STRANDED with NOTHING to sustain their very lives in the long term.

    THIS….THIS very point I make is the most pointed question I get from eveyone who once watched this show with me. Notice I said WATCHED.

    Doc thank you for your kind words and encouragement

    THIS is my one unforgiving issue I have with JJ, Cuse, etc… In a show that is dense and complex, the obvious cannot be overlooked nor ignored.

    Comment by thirdflr — February 16, 2007 @ 10:17 pm

43. 

    I love it when people yell at doc to stop bitching. This is his website, you jackals! If he wants to say something, by all means, it’shis right more than yours. What a bunch of jackasses…….
    Spirited debate…say what you want about the show and it can’t solve it’s mysteries and it’s mini-series was bad and the ratings are down….Boo f’ing hoo…..I applaud you Doc…It’s time we fans fight back…the sad thing is that we have to fight our own kind….people who enjoy this show and all the good feelings and misery it somehow manages to give us all at once….say what you want, naysayers….The same lot of you waste your time on mindless shows that feed you information in order to placate your stupidity…heaven forbid you actually are required to think for once in your pathetic lives…yeah, I’m talking to you Slone and Jello….”Poor writing, single dimensional characters, inconsistncies, contradictions, retcons, illogical character actions. The criticism of Lost is quite justified.”…you cannot be serious?!!?….Name a show better than this…..Please!! I beg you!!! Please tell me it’s 24 or CSI or Law and Order!!! Please…let’s have the debate on those shows and their thought provoking, unheard of ideas…”Ripped from the headlines!”..you know why? they can’t THINK of anything better!!!…….
    “Retcons”?!?!?…..you’re an ass clown…how’s that for a fill in?? That’s something I didn’t know about you prior to starting this response but I’ve added it to fit your character or lack thereof….

    Comment by El Prez — February 16, 2007 @ 10:17 pm

44. 

    Oh my god! I remember replying to one of your “is LOST going to jump the shark?” or “has LOST, lost it?” posts saying the same thing in less words and with more vulgarity…TO YOU! Glad I could help
    All it takes is one person to spout some ignorant shit on the internet and before you know it everybody starts believing it.

    Comment by Jeramie — February 16, 2007 @ 11:23 pm

45. 

    Media needs something sensational to talk about. First they take some prodigy rookie and take it to the height of public attention and when its at its top they try to bring it down. Thats what they do with everybody be it a player, team, actor, director, writer etc.
    Lost got a lot of positive media in its first season and it was a mass hit and now when media doesnt get any kick out of praising it they try to bring it down first chance they get.
    We cant deny the fact that public as a whole has a weak memory and a short attention span, so its not going to be possible to maintain the top ranked ratings for a show which is much more intense and involved than an average viewer wants it to be. I dont blame general public for criticizing the show, its not meant for them, but its the media that get to my nerves.
    The last episode (Desmond) was one of the best I have seen on TV. It was both artistically appealing and intellectually stimulating.
    Instead of giving time and space to writers to show us their magic we are asking them to reveal the secret before the trick is performed

    Comment by artz — February 16, 2007 @ 11:23 pm

46. 

    “Poor writing, single dimensional characters, inconsistncies, contradictions, retcons, illogical character actions. The criticism of Lost is quite justified.”

    The easiest thing to do in the world is to assert something.

    I can say “Abraham Lincoln was a homosexual, widely regarded as having the finest sweet tooth in all of Dixie and constantly held a firearm close to his breast during all hours of the night. The claims that he was a crazy man beneath that hat are justified”

    See how easy that is to say?

    Notice how ridiculous that seems? I have no supporting argument, I have cited no one else’s studies of said topic; I have nothing to say. I have a list of slander basically.

    Inconsistencies? How can a show be inconsistent when you don’t know WHY or HOW things happen? Please clarify some glaring continuity problems.

    “contradictions” Synonym for inconsistencies? Way to beef up the ole argument there. If something is inconsistent couldn’t it also be a contradiction. Super sleuthing there. Really nailed Lindelof with that one.

    Retcons! Good buzz word! You could have also used “inconsistent” or “contradiction”

    “Illogical character actions”. So…they’re inconsistent?

    I suppose finding different synonyms for the same word helps to bolster your argument…

    Poor writing? In what way? Like how your writing is poor? Or in another way that you didn’t ironically illuminate for us?

    It’s really great that Lost is becoming that smart kid in your class that everybody hates because…well, he or she is smarter than you. That’s good ole American Values right there. A show like the Sopranos can grab a network by its balls despite producing nothing great for four years yet a consistently compelling and deep show like the Wire can barely manage to get a million people to watch an episode. In both cases the smart show loses out to the show that does the same thing but watered down. 24 will always be more popular than Lost because it’s easy to follow. The characters yell. Things blow up. And there are no loose ends.

    Futurama had a great quote in the “Jenny McNeal” episode. (Paraphrasing here) Unexpected things on a TV show make people feel scared and Clever things make people feel dumb. People want the same recycled trash they’ve seen before in a new package. I don’t understand why Lost attempting to be more than standard network tv fare should be a point of contention.

    Do you know how many hookers CSI have killed in the last seven years? Now THAT is glaring inconsistency. There can’t possibly be any whores left in Las Vegas….there just can’t….

    Comment by Ryan Engley — February 16, 2007 @ 11:44 pm

47. 

    You can’t please everyone, all of the time.
    Luckily, I’m pleased as punch. I wouldn’t miss Lost for the world. One of the most thought provoking and deep character based programmes i’ve had the pleasure of watching.
    I’m in it for the long haul.
    Lovin Lost!

    Comment by Markus.Darkus — February 17, 2007 @ 1:57 am

48. 

    Hey, I like Lost. I like the mystery more than the answers, to be honest. It’s always with a heavy heart that I see the questions answered, because it’s never as cool as the build up. What I think is stupid is this whole “we like this show because we’re smart” attitude. Please. Or this whole call to arms, how we fans have to defend our show from other people’s opinions. It’s crap.

    The fact is, is that people are getting their identities confused with a TV show. How is that being smarter than these people that the defensive fans are looking down on? Why does it matter if a large chunk of people don’t like the show? It doesn’t make them stupid, or us smart for liking it. All I’m seeing is that knee jerk reaction of the need for validation. It’s juvenile. It’s too bad that these days people can’t stand criticism, but instead only seek to validate their own opinions.

    Stop the overreaction. You are not a TV show, so stop defending it like it has anything to do with your intelligence or whatever it is that you’re really defending. Seriously, this isn’t some pop psychology; you people are making a big deal out of nothing, and the only reason is because you take it way too personal when somebody insults the show.

    Comment by Jello — February 17, 2007 @ 1:57 am

49. 

    I agree with you 100%! On the board where I go everyday, most people are always looking for the negativity… it’s so annoying, I help so much on that board… but when I gave my opinion, and told them that they should either stop posting stupid things, and only being frustrated with the show, or just f*cking stop watching! The main guy’s like: “I choose what I wanna watch, and what I think about what I watch bla-bla-bla…”
    I think I’m gonna look for another board where people actually appreciate LOST! I love LOST, and will watch until it’s over, even if it becomes really bad… (of course that wont happen!) Thanks for defending LOST too!

    Comment by Josh — February 17, 2007 @ 3:24 am

50. 

    It’s like Mathew Fox once said in a interview:’Good ridance…’. Now I think everybody’s entitled to their their own opinion & of course Lost isn’t perfect. But if u bother to come here and post your opinion then I think the bashing is just ignorant. The average Joe doesn’t come to post his opinion on forums. He just switches off the TV & adios!! Now the “fan” posts on forums, usually have an bigger indepth understanding of the show, & i think personally if u didn’t get by now, u’ll never get it. Got nuthin to do with intellect (not really convinced ’bout that but hey…) but it shows how willing you are to appreciate this outstanding show. If not go check Ugly Betty or watch reruns of Dallas…
    Doc, I’m wit ya 200%!!!

    Comment by JDSalinga — February 17, 2007 @ 4:57 am

51. 

    To those of you who think this is overreacting… how could you have possibly missed the point? The point is to STOP overreacting. Stop being so negative and histrionic about the shows misgivings. Just relax, and let the praise flow. If your still watching, its because you like it. Don’t connect with the wrong energy. Don’t give yourself to the dark-side

    Comment by docarzt — February 17, 2007 @ 5:38 am

52. 

    I like Lost from ep 1. Really awesome show. And I plan to keep on watching it till the end regardless of ratings, I couldn´t care less about that really.

    However I can´t deny that the show had very weak moments in season two and the start of season three was just unsatisfying to say the least. From the mini season, episodes 1 and 6 were kinda almost good, all the other ones sucked hardcore.

    Now episodes 7 and 8 are putting Lost back on track, BUT the never ending hiatus between seasons and specially the hiatus between episodes 6 and 7 was awful. That and the lack of answers (I mean come on, season three and we still have no clue of where or what that smoke monsters is or comes from or it´s goals…or where is that communication tower, or why everyone have those day dreams or allucinations, or what is the sickness, or where is the horse Kate saw? or the whispers? those are all damn old questions with no answer so far) makes easy to understand why people are pissed off about the show.

    I am not happy about it either but I still think the show is awesome, one of the best and I am not dropping it.

    Comment by ed — February 17, 2007 @ 5:46 am

53. 

    All of this back and forth and name calling reminds me of my family Thanksgivings. This forum is about community. It’s a gathering together to discuss a TV show. Some of us love it, some hate it, some love to hate it. But the show is what has brought all of these opinions together, the good and the bad. I’d rather see postings like this, than those of indifference. And if you post, you can’t be indifferent. The act of posting shows you have a feeling one way or the other.
    But I agree with Doc and Chris Rock..It’s the media’s fault

    Comment by El Prez — February 17, 2007 @ 6:16 am

54. 

    El Prez
    “Name a show better than this…..Please!! I beg you!!!”

    I don’t watch a whole lot of TV, especially now that football season is over, but off the top of my head; Battlestar Galactica, The Shield, Heroes, …

    El Prez
    “”Retcons”?!?!?…..you’re an ass clown”

    Typical tool of the weak, if you can’t refute a person’s logic, call them names. Thanks for admitting you’re beaten. And showing what an intelligent and sophisticated audience the rabid Lost fan is.

    Comment by Slone — February 17, 2007 @ 6:45 am

55. 

    Amen, Doc. I love this ‘novel’.

    Comment by BenisGod — February 17, 2007 @ 7:12 am

56. 

    Ryan Engley
    “Please clarify some glaring continuity problems.”

    Why did it take 10 minutes to go from the Hatch to the Beach some times, while other times it took hours? And why does it switch from daylight to night at the oddest times. Like when they went back to the beach to get the heroin for Libby. Sawyer said it was 10 minutes. But the trip took so long that they left in daylight and when they got to the beach it was dark. Then when they returned to the Hatch it was daylight again.

    Ryan Engley
    “contradictions”

    Let’s look at the secne with the lady in the jewelry shop from the most recent episode? She shows Desmond the guy with the red shoes, and how he’s ‘destined’ to die. Desmond could have saved him from the collapsing scaffold, but he would have died the next day getting hit by a car, or slipping in the shower. Afterall, the universe has a way of self correcting.

    OK. Why then does she make a big deal about Desmond buying the ring. If the universe can self correct, then is should make no difference if Desmond married Penny or not, the universe would have found a way to place Desmond on the island. So why does the lady care that he wants to buy the ring? Does the universe self correct or not? Do people have a destiny, or don’t they? That’s pretty much a textbook definition of a contradiction.

    Ryan Engley
    “Retcons!”

    Compare at the actions of Desmond in the S2 premier and finale for a nice example of retroactive continuity. In the premier he grabs the vaccine before fleeing from the Hatch, yet in the season finale it’s shown that he knows there is no need for the vaccine. And why did he flee from the hatch in the premier, when he could have just used the fail safe key? And why did early in the finale he debate with Locke that pushing the button didn’t do anything, when later in the same episode it was shown that he knew not pushing the button would cause a reaction? When actions later in the show change the reality that has already been established, that’s called a retcon.

    Ryan Engley
    “Illogical character actions”

    Well there’s the fact that no body talks about anything or acts on anything that happened the day before. Totally un-natural behavior used solely to prolong the show. But there’s lots more examples of illogical character behavior. Like Jack knowing that Michael was intending to lead them into a trap, and developing a plan where they did just that. Or Sayid, the trained soldier setting up an ambush so far away from the bait (the boat) that it can be easily snatched away, or the whole convoluted plot by Ben to get Jack to operate on him.

    Ryan Engley
    “Poor writing? In what way?”

    Most of the problems I’ve detailed above can be tied to poor writing. But there’s also the horendous dialog, so bad at times that I literally laugh out loud. Or the ham handed use of metaphor (The Moth), something you’d expect to see from a high school english class where they first teach the concept.

    Ryan Engley
    “It’s really great that Lost is becoming that smart kid in your class that everybody hates because…well, he or she is smarter than you.”

    Lost is NOT a smart show. It throws a lot of stuff out there, which requires no talent. But none of it is developed or extrapolated upon, which DOES require talent. Lost is best watched with your brain turned off. Look at the pretty scenery, and the beautiful people, and the high quality cinematography. Under close scrutiny Lost’s defincies are glaring. The Emperor has no clothes.

    Comment by Slone — February 17, 2007 @ 7:16 am

57. 

    Jesus THANK YOU. That was an opinion. You are entitled to have it. Though I disagree thank you for taking the time to post something well thought out.

    Comment by Ryan Engley — February 17, 2007 @ 7:25 am

58. 

    Doc, just wanted to let you know I posted your thoughts, in my own words, at the Fuselage.

    I wanted to add that what we, as fans, say about the show goes a long way in affecting the general public. I have a friend who works a video store who told me most of the season one and two DVDs were rented out prior to the Feburary return because of people telling their friends about the show. One of my room mates borrowed my DVDs and now watches the show with me. If people will watch the show based on fan support, they’ll also stop watching the show based on those same fans disapproval.

    Comment by Merlboroman — February 17, 2007 @ 7:33 am

59. 

    Slone

    “It throws a lot of stuff out there, which requires no talent. But none of it is developed or extrapolated upon, which DOES require talent.”

    I’m not sure if you can see the humor here but this is basically what I said of your post earlier. “The easiest thing in the world is to assert something with no proof”

    This isn’t a name calling post, or a “now you have no point” post, I just legitimately think it’s funny that you managed to sum up my longer post in about two sentences. This is honestly a friendly thing. It’s very difficult to convey that sort of thing on the internet without use of nauseating smilies, especially in forum as heated as this (well, not heated, maybe two notches above lukewarm)

    In an argument as nebulous as “Is Lost a good show” it’s important to clarify your terms. People everywhere say things exactly like what you just said without, to borrow your words, extrapolating or expanding up their thesis.

    Only a couple points I’d like do a “point-counter point” on.

    As far as the whole “taking such and such time to get to the hatch on this day but then taking longer on this day” that is a definite continuity issue, however I don’t really think it’s a big deal. I know it probably seems like I’m belittling your point, and I am aware that was simply a top of your head thing, but there are liberties television shows and movies are entitled to take simply for ease of story telling. For me personally, that doesn’t bother me, though I could see how it would bother others.

    Where is the line for Lost, I think is a more apropos question here. Can Lost and it’s fans bitch about it being “better than average” television (like me) and then ignore something like that? Something that a show like 24 could sidestep (nobody ever eats or goes to the bathroom…that doesn’t really bother me)because it hasn’t built up this reputation as being a bastion for all things anti network tv. I don’t really know, if it’s hypocritical of me to not be bothered by that then so be it.

    Also, the whole oracle lady telling Desmond he can’t marry Penny yet, if he did, wouldn’t the universe course correct? That’s a good question but the argument you could have with that is pretty expansive. I’m of the opinion that he didn’t travel through time and that he just had a very lucid island induced dream. I felt like the island was just trying to make him understand that he needs to accept his fate for what it is. But again, just my opinion.

    I felt the debate about not pushing the buttons was whether the reaction was anything to be trifled with. Locke saw the “funny red pictures” like Desmond did (though he didn’t see the compound shake) and he still believed that nothing would happen. I looked at that episode as Desmond desperately wanting to give up the button by letting it go and not using the key (which he or kelvin never used because they’re cowards remember?). You have to remember the “Desmond Coward” storyline and his actions make more sense. Of course he would run away to his boat and let someone else deal with the problem. Of course he would keep injecting that crap because he was afraid of SOMETHING happening. If there’s a point of contention to be had here it’s that he changed from coward to hero almost too quickly.

    (Also, the way I see it, if Ben could convince Jack he wanted to do it then Ben would assured Jack wouldn’t do shit like he did during the surgery. That was my take on it.)

    The poor writing comment…I agree, for the most part. Lost has their moments of Horatio Cane brilliance.

    If Lost extrapolated or expanded upon the ideas, themes and motifs it throws at you every week then it would be a very different show. We all know by now that it’s mystery first, explanation later. Whether or not you like that is up to personal preference but to ignore the fact that this is how the show operates is blatantly blind at this point. You seem to have a much shorter leash with the show than I do. I sort of just “go with it”. If it takes three seconds to get from the beach to the hatch I’m not really bothered because i don’t feel that’s integral to “where is the island?” “what is the island” “what is the black smoke monster” “why are they there”. People get upset about that because Lost purports itself to be a show where everything is executed to perfection. I think that’s a ridiculous bar to set for anything a human has made.

    Initially I was just going to be satisfied with an elaboration on a point but you dragged my hungover ass out of bed to post this. Congrats.

    Good luck and Namaste

    Comment by Ryan Engley — February 17, 2007 @ 8:12 am

60. 

    So the question stone is, first, what is your example of a perfect show? Because there are none. No work of art is going to be perfect under scrutiny. Suspension of disbelief is what completes the illusion each and every time. no, whether or not they are making it up as they go along (which is how most art is created, you should know) the show does present compelling mysteries. I’d agree with you that the show itself is not ’smart’, that would be a bit of anthropomorphism, but the community that has developed around it is smart… and if the show serves as some sort of rorschach that brings out the brilliance in people… so be it. But because you can nitpick and discover continuity errors that are prevalent in ANY production, not just LOST, you really only succeed in establishing yourself as one of the many cranks who really has no business being on sites like this. So thanks for your efforts to ‘educate’ us all in the mechanics of being an over zealous nit-picker, but it won’t be necessary… until you can prove that these sort of errors are confined to LOST and not just a common byproduct of the illusion that is moving pictures…

    Comment by docarzt — February 17, 2007 @ 8:13 am

61. 

    Well written Jon!

    What really pisses me off is that these articles always state that people are complaining about the show on popular sites and message boards. Which are the popular Lost sites? The Tailsection, Lost-Media, Lostpedia, The Lost Blog, 4815162342.com, lost.cubit.net and some others right?

    Hardly anyone is complaining about Lost over at my site (The Lost Blog) and I haven’t really seen that many complaints on other sites either so it would be nice if the press would stop lying and actually take a look at what the fans really think.

    Comment by Andreas Climent — February 17, 2007 @ 8:14 am

62. 

    10:00 PM on a weeknight is just too late for me. From this point on, I’ll watch on ABC.com on Thursday evenings instead. It is my way of telling the powers that be that I am still interested, but the time change sucks. It is not my intention to hurt the cause, but then again, I didn’t move this show to the later time slot.

    Comment by badwolf — February 17, 2007 @ 8:17 am

63. 

    Oh my gosh… how can anyone complaining about inconsistencies and illogical character actions use Battlestar Galactica as an example of a better show!

    I was intrigued by the BSG miniseries, and began watching the show. I wanted to like it, I really did, but talk about failed potential. I couldn’t take how the characters’ motivations would flip on a weekly basis to suit the moral lesson for whatever the issue of the week was. It’s pretty much the norm for folks on that show act completely out of character, in direct contrast to past actions or beliefs clearly established for a character. By the time of the whole New Caprica ordeal it became impossible to suspend disbelief long enough to even enjoy the show anymore (prime example of characters changing motivation on a dime and behaving illogically? See Tigh. They’re pretty good at doing it with Starbuck, too. They’ve even thrown Adama into that mix, who was the closest thing to a rock-solid character on that program.) Baltar and Six, with their head-visions of each other? The Roslin prophecy… and the Cylons… ugh. I could go on, but it turns my stomach just thinking about it, so I’ll stop. I don’t fault anyone for being a fan, it’s all personal preference, but one who considers BSG to be an example of high-caliber writing with consistent and logical character actions doesn’t possess the credibility to lodge those complaints against Lost… I can’t even comprehend it… Lost is a model of consistency and logic next to BSG.

    Comment by mark — February 17, 2007 @ 9:22 am

64. 

    DIE HARD LOST FAN

    Comment by Stef From Belgium — February 17, 2007 @ 10:18 am

65. 

    It really is ridiculous what they’re saying.

    I read this site and lost-media ALL the time and there are far, far, FAR, more positive comments than negative. Even on tv.com where causal fans dwell, this past week’s episode is receiving some of the highest scores for the series yet.

    Fans are NOT complaining much at all! It’s unfounded, and in actuality just a out-and-out lie.

    It’s like one reporter writes a story and they all just piggy back on it trying to make it sound more and more sensational each time.

    So stupid. I pray abc and LOST’s creators are not listening to this.

    Comment by SagaciousPenguin — February 17, 2007 @ 11:11 am

66. 

    Sorry that this is just another post from another guy that totally agrees with this article, but I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THIS ARTICLE. except for a few things:
    I am so much of a die-hard lostie that I actually ENJOYED the hiatus and thought it was well worth it. If I remember correctly, when the concept of having this season of lost in two chunks was introduced, everyone thought it was a great idea. People only started hating it when the time came around to not have LOST playing every week. Me? I spent my time watching Seasons 1 and 2 again, so when the time came for the next episodes of LOST, I would enjoy it all the more because it stayed fresh in my mind, and there would be no moments of, “Wait, when did that happen?”
    Honestly, I love bing LOST inn the mysteries of LOST. For example, say that the end of Season 1 showed Desmond in the hatch and the button and everything. We’d be like, “Oh, so there’s a guy in the hatch. Cool. I’m going to bed now.” NOTHING TO KEEP US INTERESTED. NOTHING TO MAKE US THINK. The best part of this show is actually the week in between episodes when you have time to watch it over again, let it soak in, and talk about it on the boards like this.
    And to all the people who think that LOST is badly written, WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE??? There’s a reason that the writers/producers/directors have been hired to do other things, like Mission Impossible 3, and Star Trek 11 (forthcoming). BECAUSE THEY ARE GOOD!!! Go read some frickin’ Stephen King novels, and worship the ground he works on for all the great writing he does, and totally ignore the fact that HE LIKES THE SHOW TOO!!!

    GOD!

    Comment by mrmikedrum — February 17, 2007 @ 11:30 am

67. 

    The thing that annoys me is a whole bunch of writers who don’t know anything about Lost find out about the ratings slump mand decide to write an article about it which is completely biased and uninformed

    Comment by Tilly — February 17, 2007 @ 12:04 pm

68. 

    Oh no, gloom and doom, people are ranting about people ranting about Lost’s ratings. Please. A little perspective here before we start complaining about those evil journalists who are out to get Lost.

    First things first: Lost still led the time period in the 18-49 demographic, the most important one for advertisers. So as long as this continues to be the case, ABC can still charge good advertising rates on the show. For that reason alone, I would have to say that there is no way Lost is in any kind of “danger.”

    I think the time slot move is the biggest reason for the Lost drop-off so far — a look at the Nielsen top 20 reveals that only 3 or 4 shows which start at 10pm even crack the top 20. And these 3 or 4 shows are ones whose viewership is dominated by older people, like CSI:NY, CSI:Miami, and one of the Law and Orders.

    I have to think that this is the biggest reason for the drop-off because it clearly isn’t quality issues. I am one of the people who really hated the mini-season, and while I never considered not watching the show, I thought those who were defending the quality of it were really deluding themselves.

    However, these last two episodes have been really really top quality stuff, definitely the best episodes of this season by far. So it is puzzling for me that journalists regard “confusion” or general dissatisfaction with the show as the reason for viewer flight. If you look at the Fuselage’s message boards for the last two episodes, the vast vast majority of fans liked those episodes. This is in stark contrast to the reactions to the mini-season, where the traditionally loyal fan base called the creators out on a clear downgrade in quality.

    Anyway my point is: don’t get worried about the naysayers. I know DocArzt is a bit of a reactionary (just a smidgen), so I understand why s/he’s written this screed against the anti-Lost establishment. But the show is back, and it’s going to continue, and I think if the show ends next season or shortly thereafter, then there will still be enough people around for ABC to greenlight it for the remainder of its life.

    Comment by sunnysider — February 17, 2007 @ 1:11 pm

69. 

    Slone-
    Touche…..I resorted to name calling, a juvenile debate technique….While you may, in fact, be an actual ass clown, it was wrong of me to point that out to the entire board posting community….I apologize.
    I think everyone else did a much more eloquent job of proving that you are an ass clown, I just happened to see the future and knew that everyone would come to that conclusion.
    Sincerely,
    The weak minded
    El Prez

    Comment by El Prez — February 17, 2007 @ 1:28 pm

70. 

    Ryan
    Thanks for the rational discussion. We obviously disagree, but in exchanging our viewpoints in a reasonable way we just might learn something, or at least change our way of looking at things.

    In any sci fi, fantasy, fictional work a certain amount of ’suspension of disbelie’ is necessary. I don’t have a problem with that at all. If you want to watch Star Trek or Star Wars you must accept that faster than light travel is possible. if you want to watch Lord of the Rings you must accept a world where elves and dwarves and hobbits exist. And if you want to watch Lost you must accept that it’s possible for an airplane to break up at high altitude (thoufg that’s another retconed fact I have a problem with)and have 70ish people survive with minor injuries. I can accept that, and I can accept that they are on an island where strange things happen. It’s all part of that ’suspension of disbelief’ necessary to establish the premise of a show like Lost, or Star Trek, or Lord of the Rings. But once that alternate reality has been established, it must maintain consistency. “To thy own self be true”. This is where I feel Lost falls appart. Things already established on the show are changed in subsequent episodes. Characters behave in illogical and contradictory ways, and the laws of time and space are warped. Now if insanity or alternate laws of physics are part of the premise fine, but into the third season of Lost we have not been given indications this is the case. So what these things do is give the show a sense of unbelievability, and shatters that ’suspension of disbelief’. Some may call all these inconsistencies nit picking, but they are so prevalent and so obvious then they can do nothing but destroy the credibility of the show.

    Ryan Engley
    “Also, the whole oracle lady telling Desmond he can’t marry Penny yet, if he did, wouldn’t the universe course correct? That’s a good question but the argument you could have with that is pretty expansive. I’m of the opinion that he didn’t travel through time and that he just had a very lucid island induced dream.”

    Whether it’s time travel or hallucination is immaterial. The logical contradiction of the woman in the jewelry shop destroys the entire scene and any point that was trying to be made. A good premise destroyed by sloppy writing (which is a fitting comment for Lost overall).

    Ryan Engley
    “People get upset about that because Lost purports itself to be a show where everything is executed to perfection.”

    I’m not looking for perfection. But when you have ‘everything happens for a reason’ hammered into you brain, and then see that the majority of what is presented has no meaning, it destroys that credibility of a show I mentioned earlier.

    Comment by Slone — February 17, 2007 @ 1:32 pm

71. 

    Doc, i’ve been a fan since the begining but your statement is the only thing that made me want to say something:

    100% correct brother….Amen.

    Comment by qwerty — February 17, 2007 @ 1:32 pm

72. 

    Wow. I’ve never understood how some people become so fanatical about a sports team or TV show that they’ll support them no matter what. Loyalty to a person makes sense, because the relationship goes in both directions. But loyalty to a TV show? If I lose my job, will the producers of Lost pay my rent? Will my favourite sports team hold a rally for me?

    Such devotion is irrational. I like the Calgary Flames, but I can still criticize the coach or general manager for making a bad trade. When posters say a “true fan” would never criticize Lost, such fanatacism scares me. And no one must criticize or disagree with President Bush, either, right?

    I really like Lost, but it’s just a TV show. And it’s very flawed.

    The writers have painted themselves into a corner. So there’s now only one explanation for everything that’s happened. Are the Losties really in an insane asylum imaging all this? Are they lost in time like Desmond, doomed to repeat their lives? Are they in purgatory? Is it an elaborate social experiment? Was the plane crash staged and all their memories of the past just implanted? Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. It will turn out that the truth is different for each character — perhaps they were in a crash and are all now each in a coma, on life support, having a dream, perhaps a shared dream. Or they were created by Dharma three years ago.

    So if you’re hoping to have everything explained and make sense by the time the series ends, you’re out of luck.

    Comment by TimeTraveller — February 17, 2007 @ 1:45 pm

73. 

    docarzt
    “I’d agree with you that the show itself is not ’smart’, that would be a bit of anthropomorphism, but the community that has developed around it is smart… and if the show serves as some sort of rorschach that brings out the brilliance in people… so be it.”

    I don’t think you can generalize the Lost viewes that way. Yes there are many who are quite intelligent, and analytical, and well spoken. Who enjoy the complexity and the mysteries of Lost. But there are also many mindless folks who watch the show. Who only care about seeing Desmond with his shirt off, or watching Kate’s boobs bounce, and who live for the love triangle plot thread. Generalizing the entire audience on the basis of the former is just as invalid as if I would generalize them all according to the later.

    docarzt
    “But because you can nitpick and discover continuity errors that are prevalent in ANY production, not just LOST, you really only succeed in establishing yourself as one of the many cranks who really has no business being on sites like this. So thanks for your efforts to ‘educate’ us all in the mechanics of being an over zealous nit-picker, but it won’t be necessary… until you can prove that these sort of errors are confined to LOST and not just a common byproduct of the illusion that is moving pictures…”

    That’s an intillectually bankrupt argument. Akin to saying ‘yes I ran that red light, and it’s against the law, but you can’t arrest me unless you also arrest every other law breaker”. That’s sad, because when I followed the chum trail your trolls set out amongst the other Lost message boards by crossposting your drivel I thought I’d get a decent debate here. But I see that is now unlikely. And besides, where’s the sport in dueling an unarmed man.

    Comment by Slone — February 17, 2007 @ 1:49 pm

74. 

    mark
    “Oh my gosh… how can anyone complaining about inconsistencies and illogical character actions use Battlestar Galactica as an example of a better show!”

    I’m new here, but I’ve tried to play by the rules. Ryan says that you can’t just make unsubstantiated claims. So unless you can back up what you’re saying about BSG with some examples, we’ll just have to ignore you.

    Comment by Slone — February 17, 2007 @ 1:52 pm

75. 

    DocArzt Said:

    “So the question stone is, first, what is your example of a perfect show? Because there are none. No work of art is going to be perfect under scrutiny.”

    An excellent point. Anyone ever read Don Quixote? Many writers and scholars considers it the BEST novel EVER written. But it’s loaded with inconsistencies. Granted, it’s a bit more forgivable considering Cervantes wrote the massive thing by hand. But there’s any number of disappearing/reappearing donkeys, character name changes, even some goofed up ‘retcon’ stuff…

    If this, the world’s greatest novel is full of these issues, it says to me that it’s okay to evaluate a show holistically rather than focus on the details. I mean, if realism and rock solid consistency is all your after watch the news (though thanks to the art of spin, even our news stories suffer from ‘retcon’ issues (ie, ‘we never said we were going into Iraq over WMDs’).

    Comment by wedestroymyths — February 17, 2007 @ 2:00 pm

76. 

    Sloane,

    I’m too lazy at the moment to work up some BSG inconsistencies, but I’ve lauged at more battlestar dialogue than LOST dialogue. Sure, they both have crappy dialogue. They’re TV shows. Granted, they’re the two TV shows that convinved me to put the books down every once in a while and come back to TV, so I’m going to still view them critically, but I watch TV for fun.

    As for some specific moments of BSG dialogue absurdity–how about 80% of the dialoge born out of the Kara/Anders/Lee/Dee love/hate fest. That showdown between Lee and Anders in regards to saving Starbuck was ridiculous. Not only was it poorly written, but nothing we have seen about Anders indicates he is that self-absorbed to place his own wife above the interest of the survival of the human race.

    Also, everytime Edward James Olmos opens his mouth it sounds ridiculous. He speaks like a hard boiled detective out of some 40’s noir film. BSG’s problem is that it takes itself TOO seriously.

    And just to contextualize my comments. For the first season of each show, I preferred Lost to BSG. Second season went to BSG hands down. And third season was leaning strongly towards BSG, but the last two episodes of LOST have kept me far more riveted than anything post-Holiday on BSG.

    Comment by wedestroymyths — February 17, 2007 @ 2:13 pm

77. 

    Well, I disagree with what a lot of people are saying. As TRUE fans of the show, we aren’t going to blindly support whatever they throw in front of us. If we don’t like an episode, and have valid, reasonable OPINIONS about why certain episodes/story arcs didn’t do it for us, then we SHOULD “complain” about them, so that our opinions are heard. Even die hard sports fans do this. They do it all the time, they love their team, they’re devoted to them, they’ve got all the merchandise, etc, but if there’s something wrong with the team, or they go on a losing streak, yes, they’ll always be there and support the team, but they aren’t going to do it without being armchair quarterbacks and saying what they’d do differently, and how. Same goes for Lost. Don’t expect me to sit here and praise all that is Lost w/o having a few complaints.

    Comment by Capo — February 17, 2007 @ 2:27 pm

78. 

    So slone… your ducking my requirements for validating your WEAK point by calling me an idiot? Come back when you can respond. I responded to your argument by stating the simple fact that the lack of perfection does not condemn LOST, only gives glee to nitpickers such as yourself and that, in fact, all films and television programs are full of inconsistency and plot holes which means, simply, that plot holes and inconsistency do not make a show bad.

    On the other hand, I would say that LOST is very challenging for what it is in the sense of how it threads themes. It is not always successful in doing so, but it does hit and hit well.

    In terms of intellectual allegory, yeah… LOST is not NOT The Prisoner, fillini, or Peter Greenaway. I get a hoot out of the people who try to bend the subtle symbolism of LOST to those extremes, it simply is not there.

    On the other hand, to not recognize how ingenious some of the plot twists for LOST have been is simply an admission that you don’t watch the show for what it is.

    But, all that aside… I’m still waiting for you to name this “perfect show” archetype so I can tear it down similar to your earlier post and prove that your argument was nothing more than nitpicking… until you do that, you’re wrong.

    Comment by docarzt — February 17, 2007 @ 2:32 pm

79. 

    Having access to the Nielsen Meter market overnights, in just about all of the top 20 Markets, LOST won the time period delivering anywhere from a 7 to a 10 rating. I bet all ABC stations are thrilled to have a 10p (9p CST) show that delivers these kind of ratings as it provides a much stronger leadin to their Late News. Plus, a traditional 9p show might have 6 :30 local spots for sale, a 10p show has about double that as they have the break out of LOST before the Late News starts. So, if you ask the local stations thought, LOST is a HUGE hit.

    Comment by Nielsen Guy — February 17, 2007 @ 3:52 pm

80. 

    There have been alot of comments to read through, and my attention span is short so im sorry if someone has already pointed this out.

    http://torrentfreak.com/lost-the-most-popular-tv-show-on-bittorrent/

    The article contained at that link contains an interesting piece of information regarding the torrented downloads of LOST. Although it is afew months old I feel it is extremely relevant to the topic, and prevalent now due to the ratings drop. Yes, there has been a drop in ratings but the online LOST community is strong and continues to grow.

    The fact that LOST is number 1 on this list is incredible, especially considering the abuse it takes from “critics”. It just shows that although some people may be turning off, people are downloading and watching the show later. Its a shame these viewers opinions arent taken into account.

    Comment by Morgan — February 17, 2007 @ 3:59 pm

81. 

    Doc,

    In reading your rant, as well as the various postings here, I have to say this: you’re not representing yourself well. Not in terms of your passion (that’s obvious, and bravo to you for feeling so strongly about the show), but your arguments are replete with illogical constructs and sophist rants that, well, effectively destroys your credibility.

    Re: The Perfect Show
    You ask Slone to provide an example of a “perfect show” archetype. Well, we all know that no such example exists. It’s tantamount to asking for a “perfect human being”. No, there is no such thing. However, that doesn’t, in any way, detract from Slone’s point that one can most definitively distinguish between differences in individuals and even point out that one person is subjectively better than another given some criteria (an easy example: a convict vs. a humanitarian…of course, that doesn’t take into account the humanitarian convict, but that’s another story entire–yes that was a joke). Slone is pointing out that if you use continuity as your criteria (although he points out there are other criteria one could use as well), Lost has some issues, which are even more conspicuous given how Lost markets itself as a rather clever show. That’s it. So, please stop attempting to cloud Slone’s point with irrelevant objections–that’s the very definition of what a sophist is and does, and why Socrates held them in such low regard some 2500 years ago. Time hasn’t improved the appeal of leveraging sophist tactics.

    In all of your posts, you’ve failed to see this salient point, as well as the general argument that you’ve completely overreacted to criticism levelled at the show and thus played completely into the hands of those you are attempting to deride. At the same time, for some reason, you’ve decided to go on the offensive against supporters of Lost who may have some concerns regarding specific aspects of the show. This tactic is precisely what Slone is being critical of in Lost as a whole, and you’re only providing a rather amusing parody of it, evidently without even realizing what you’re doing. However, all of that isn’t really that much of a problem for me…we’re all allowed to have our own unique character traits (god knows I’ve quite a few).

    The Most Important Issue I Have re: Your (Doc’s) Initial Post
    What’s even more egregious to me, however, is your assertion that those who might have some issues with Lost must “stop watching it, and don’t contribute to the hate and discontent to the community” (to quote your original post). In essence, you’re suggesting that fans of Lost should not criticize what they believe are issues with the show that they are uncomfortable with. I hope you’re not suggesting that simply disagreeing is somehow spreading hate and discontent: that’s a kind of intellectual blackmail that simply never washes with me (don’t you think that all of us have a right to express our thoughts, and that some of us might have very good reasons for our concerns?). Politicians use such tactics to stifle debate by labelling those with contradictory opinions as being unpatriotic. Please don’t allow yourself to fall into the same intellectually dishonest pit.

    In addition, consider what you’ve basically done to some members of your audience: you’re in effect asking those of us who actually like the show, but are willing to admit that 1) it has flaws like any other show, and 2) for gods sake, it’s just a television show, to leave the Lost community. Agree or leave? That’s basically what your post suggests. I, for one, appreciate debate, and think it is healthy. You may disagree, but you should ask yourself what you’re really advocating before making such blanket statements. There’s a difference between flaming/trolling and having a difference of opinion.

    Just wanted to pass along one person’s perception which is subjectively mine but that, given what some other posts have indicated, seems to be a perception shared by some others, too.

    With That All Said, However…
    With all that said, I do want to say that I do appreciate this site as well as your passion for Lost, not to mention the obvious work you put into maintaining it.

    I’d just prefer (and I readily admit that it’s just my opinion–it’s still your site) that you’d lighten up on making such dramatic and highly overwrought/emotional statements in which you attack some of the very people who support the show, and in effect, your site. And please don’t ask your audience to muzzle themselves re: their opinions. That’s just not fair to them, nor is it fair to Lost.

    Thanks for listening.

    Comment by Spence — February 17, 2007 @ 5:31 pm

82. 

    wedestroymyths
    I’ve only seen the first two seasons of BSG, so I haven’t seen the New Caprica stuff you’re refering to. But for the most part I don’t have the same problems with BSG as I do with Lost. BSG isn’t perfect, but it’s faults aren’t as glaring or as prevalent as to shatter the suspension of disbelief. It’s not as visually stunning as Lost, despite its other shortcomings, Lost is still top notch cinematically. I find the characters a lot more compelling in BSG too. They’re more complex and they actually change and grow. While too many of the characters on Lost are one dimensional; Jack has to fix things, Kate runs away from things, Sawyer is the con man with a heart of gold, Hurley is the fat guy who plays the comic relief function, etc.

    Comment by Slone — February 17, 2007 @ 5:34 pm

83. 

    docarzt
    “So slone… your ducking my requirements for validating your WEAK point by calling me an idiot?”

    No, I never said that you were an idiot, I said your argument was intellectually bankrupt. And given your original rant and your subsequent replies, you’ve certainly given me reason to question your capacity. But I’m not one to engage in name calling. So again, you’re arguments are disingenuous.

    docarzt
    ” I responded to your argument by stating the simple fact that the lack of perfection does not condemn LOST, only gives glee to nitpickers such as yourself and that, in fact, all films and television programs are full of inconsistency and plot holes which means, simply, that plot holes and inconsistency do not make a show bad.”

    I never claimed that another show was perfect, or even that perfection was a goal. Perfection is totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand. And you’re implication that I said this is a textbook example of a Strawman, another highly disingenuous debating technique. Please address the points I made and the logic therein, don’t put words in my mouth and then condemn me on that basis.

    There is no such thing as a perfect TV show, they all have their flaws. It is my contention that Losts are so prevalent and so frequnt that they detract tremendously from the show. The contradictions, continuity errors, illogical characters, retcons, and plot holes have shattered the believability of the show and make it impossible to maintain my suspension of disbelief in this fantasy program. Notice I never mentioned the glacial pace of the plot development and the preponderance of tantalizing plot threads that never went anywhere.

    Comment by Slone — February 17, 2007 @ 6:04 pm

84. 

    While I mostly disagree w/ the naysayers, I think just about everyone has made some valid points. Most of the negative is probably out of being enthralled by season 1 (and maybe 2) and then feeling as if it’s going downhill. Personally I think the last two episodes are two of the best, but the first six (besides the Locke episode) were some of the worst. I still watched because I knew it would be integral in the overall direction of the show. They were obviously trying to bring us into the lives of “the others” (especially Ben and Juliet). While some of it seemed to be unnecessarily dragging things out, Ben and Juliet have turned out to be very intriguing characters.

    To the point of the ratings. I think there is a lot to be said about people waiting for the DVD’s. I myself became a fan in the middle of season 2. My tattoo guy was talking to me about the show during a tat session and got me interested enough to rent season 1. I couldn’t put it down (good comparison to a novel by the way). Some nights I’d be up till like 4am because I had to see the next episode. After watching all of them, I had to wait for the season 2 reruns, as we know we can’t just start in the middle (just like a book). I stopped watching the reruns when there was a long hiatus after the “tailies” recap. I then decided to wait for the DVD’s so I could again watch them without waiting. I make these points to illustrate that…
    1. it’s hard to pick up new fans in midseason
    2. people were turned off by the hiatus between 3.6-3.7
    3. A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE WAITING FOR THE DVD’S

    As far as poor dialogue and continuity errors, is this really why we watch? To find holes in the script? We watch for the mind stimulation you can get on no other show. Suspension of disbelief is all you had to say doc. Suspension of disbelief is what you use when getting past something that is not the core of the overall sensation. By the way, we don’t even know who or what Ms. Hawking is yet, so let’s not worry too much about what she’s saying now. The real question is what is her true intention? I’m sure she’ll be explained eventually, but it is questions like this that keep us coming back for more. It can be torture, but sometimes you need a good spanking.

    Lastly, thank you doc for thetailsection. It is mostly these discussions that have me again watching episode to episode each week. It’s hard to get me away from sports and into a weekly TV show. Lost has done this better than any TV show in my life. Whatever your opinions are, these posts are proof positive that we are watching a great story.

    Comment by cap10tripps — February 17, 2007 @ 6:38 pm

85. 

    Slone,

    First, I’m sorry if I spoiled anything BSG for you. I wasn’t thinking when I used that example. Second, I agree with your overall assessment of the characterization of Lost, it just doesn’t bother me. I have colossally low expectations for all television programming. Also, to some extent I agree with you on the BSG characters. Only, and maybe you’ll pick up on it more when you watch season 3, though I’ve noticed it for a while, a lot of its character conflict and change is very forced and abrupt. It’s more than likely a pacing thing but, while I’ll say it’s characterization is far better than Lost, it’s nowhere near the quality of, say, a Kazuo Ishiguro or Margaret Attwood novel.

    I guess that’s the main perspective I’d like to bring to this debate. Where is the line between entertainment and art? Can a TV show be art? And can we allow lower standards for TV art due to production and network constraints? I can honestly say I’ve seen specific episodes of shows that I could call art, but is there a series that can sustain that amid pressures of time, network, money, contract negotiations…?

    I know people get frustrated with how defensive fans can get of Lost. Keep in mind that a lot of the derision aimed at the show is also done in a very self-congratulatory fashion that implies a lack of intelligence from those who do like the show. I could honestly care less if anyone likes or dislikes the show, or what they have to say about it until comments begin to reflect a sort of loathing for the show, and an attitude of superiority. There’s actually a great thread at the fuselage for constructive criticism that is largely intelligent and fair minded. There are also threads full of ‘fans’ who deride the opinions of those who enjoy the show still. That’s where we get into odd territory, and I think that might be where the disconnect in this conversation is coming from.

    It’s one thing to criticize the show. It’s another to incessantly and negatively rag on it and it’s fan base.

    At this point I’m more intrigued by how people watch television–I never would’ve thought, in a culture that adores “Deal or no Deal,” (not that there’s anything wrong with that) that a primetime drama television show would be the subject of such intense scrutiny–more intense, and critical than some of the most acclaimed literature ever produced. Is it because the literature is canon, and is treated like an institution by mainstream America; or is it simply because it’s easier to hop on a message board and point out that a specific line of dialogue was cheesey?

    I don’t know. It’s pretty interesting to think about, though.

    Comment by wedestroymyths — February 17, 2007 @ 6:41 pm

86. 

    Will this end up being a “Butterfly Effect”? Desmond will have to go back to the point where he enters the numbers in on time so the plane nevers crashes? Any thoughts?

    Comment by Tool — February 17, 2007 @ 6:52 pm

87. 

    Slone, continuing to place yourself on the high ground and attack my debating ‘technique’ isn’t going to change the fact that your initial attack on LOST was a series of insignificant nit-picks. You have to take the good with the bad in everything.

    Comment by docarzt — February 17, 2007 @ 7:31 pm

88. 

    Spence - not saying contain your criticism at all, but frame it the way a fan would, not a hater. People are going to do what they want, whether they read my posts or not… I’m merely rallying those of us who haven’t given up and are just a little frustrated.
    Some of the criticism is just ‘fad’… like that the plot is going nowhere… look at what has happened since the pilot! There are zer0 plot threads that have been dropped and will never be resolved, and in fact a ton of information has come out to give us scope. A huge playing field has developed on this island. When will the game be played? That’s a good question. I sympathize with the writers who have no idea how long they have to keep this going for… but to say it has gone no-where is simply buying into the fad. If it has gone nowhere since the pilot, then the naysayers should easily be able to summarize the entire plot in less than 100 words… I’m waiting… be sure to hit every last point… heck I’ll even relax the word count… just make it brief enough to show how ‘glacial’ the progression has been…

    Comment by docarzt — February 17, 2007 @ 7:40 pm

89. 

    Hypocrites…

    Comment by Jeramie — February 17, 2007 @ 7:54 pm

90. 

    Everyone has their right to state an opinion no matter well thought out or spur of the moment dummy spit… nothing illustrates that more then the back and forth banter in these comments… but the issue here is JOURNALISTS who are supposed to give fair and accurate reportings based on RESEARCH. What research have they undertaken to speak for us fans and say we’re all disappointed in the show? Have they polled both mainstream Lost watchers and die-hards alike? Have they even simply browsed the popular forums and took a weighted guess at the general environment and shared feelings? Or, have they simply regurgitated what other reporters have said, just as these regurgitations will be regurgitated until we have a Grand Canyon full of metaphorical vomit and bile all over our show? The point is these writers are NOT reflecting the truth (whether it be good or bad) simply writing the conclusion to their story then retroactively arriving at that point with not even evidence of roadstops. Before I drown in metaphors as I am prone to do, I’ll sign off. Like the show or hate the show, that ain’t the issue, commenters.

    Comment by Dusk — February 17, 2007 @ 10:27 pm

91. 

    Don’t worry about it Slone (ignoring me from here out.) You already started out on that foot. I pointed out several areas of BSG inconsistency in my earlier post, which you chose to ignore in quoting only the first sentence and skipping the examples. We could list volumes of specifics. The problem is that over any two episodes of the show you rarely see any consistent motivation behind any one characters actions. They turn on a dime to fit the theme of the week, and they overuse the device where it’s one against everyone else (such as last week, when Helo had proof the doctor was killing the Saggitarrians, but nobody–not his Cylon wife, not Adama, not even Roslyn (with her body count on the white board, who supposedly says not a single life can be lost unnecessarily)–would even listen to Helo. Of course, the one thing the show has been consistent on is that angst-ridden Helo is never, ever wrong, making it all the more ridiculous that every other soul refused to even hear him out. Roslyn acted 180 degrees in contrast to her established principles–I guess her tally of souls remaining in the fleet doesn’t need to include those dirty Saggitarians! Adama, the fair-minded, even keeled leader, refused to listen to Helo. And to think that his cylon wife–with what she’d been through–piled on against Helo was laughable. Instead of the characters reacting consistently within their characters, they had to go against character so they could show us all how everyone is guilty of discrimination. And there are similar instances regularly throughout the show, motivations changing on an episode by episode basis, just to fit the theme of the week… one week, the cylons are portrayed as evil terrorists, the next we’re supposed to sympathize with them because they’re just benevolent overlords who never wanted war (which was completely believable, I mean, who would’ve thought a full-scale nuclear attack would actually be seen as a hostile act, eh?)

    Again, I don’t fault anyone for their personal preferences… but to hold BSG up as the standard of high quality writing, exemplifying consistency and logical plot development, then I’m not surprised you have such grating problems with Lost. Enjoy your lovely little cylon-human menage-a-trois scenes and robot-human hybrid babies whose blood can cure cancer but can’t ward off a little cold…

    Comment by Mark — February 17, 2007 @ 11:23 pm

92. 

    The whole damn show is entertainment. Why anyone feels like the creators of an amazing revolutionary show like Lost owe them anything is beyond me.

    If you don’t like where it’s going, just stop watching.

    Comment by Jonno — February 18, 2007 @ 3:23 am

93. 

    I just love how these pseudo-intellectual naysayers have COMPLETLY missed Docs point. He states clearly that of course Lost ain’t perfect & criticism is justified. But if yur gonna do that, u better have some damn good arguments & not the usual ‘I want answer’, it’s slow, the sun goes up when 5 minutes ago it was night bla,bla,bla’….BSG? Gimme a break, it was cancelled here for lack of an audience…I think the naysayers know how good Lost actually is but they sometimes have to slag it off @ the most basic if not primitive level so to justify their lack of capacity to enjoy Lost for what it is: if not the best, hands down the most original,rule-bending show around & there a lot good shows out there now.

    Comment by JDSalinga — February 18, 2007 @ 3:38 am

94. 

    I like BSG, but be real… flicking on the news to see what is big and controversial in the world then writing that into your show requires NO creativity. I like watching BSG but I cringe whenever I detect some message ‘torn from the headlines’ being crammed down my throat, and I want to die whenever somebody calls such sensationalism ‘creative’.

    Comment by docarzt — February 18, 2007 @ 5:45 am

95. 

    We need a new episode so we can get back to some THEORIES!! I love the show….It’s not my baby, it’s not my favorite sports team and if it’s cancelled tomorrow, my life would go on. It would be a little less interesting but I’m sure someone could start an ER board….at least then we could keep up with who is on that dang show….
    Doc-Keep up the good work! It’s your site..If you want to complain about your cable bill, post it….I have A LOT to say aout the high rates of HD DVR combos…..

    Comment by El Prez — February 18, 2007 @ 7:56 am

96. 

    cap10tripps
    “As far as poor dialogue and continuity errors, is this really why we watch? To find holes in the script? We watch for the mind stimulation you can get on no other show. Suspension of disbelief is all you had to say doc. Suspension of disbelief is what you use when getting past something that is not the core of the overall sensation.”

    Of course yo udon’t watch the show looking for continuity errors, contradictions, plot holes, etc. But when they exist in a show, like they do in Lost to such an alarming degree, it destroys that ability to suspend disbelief. And one of them, or any dozen of them is on big deal, but when they pile up week after week eventually it gets to the point of ‘the straw that broke the camel’s back’. That’s the point I, and so many other viewers of Lost have reached. You’re obviously much more forgiving, you have a much higher tolerance for accepting bullshit, that’s fine, yo uhave the right to enjoy things however you like. But by the same token don’t deny that these problems exist, that the emperor has no clothes, and that those who voice these problems are mistaken.

    Comment by Slone — February 18, 2007 @ 9:41 am

97. 

    yeah but it’s not like yur inventing the wheel again brother! This mught help: http://www.jumptheshark.com. Now this homepage is entirely devoted to bloobers, mistakes,etc.. &, surprise, Lost is also included! Mind me BSG, ER, 24, Ugly Betty, hell every single TV show in history is included…Knock yourself out…

    Comment by JDSalinga — February 18, 2007 @ 9:50 am

98. 

    wedestroymyths

    Don’t sweat it, you didn’t really spill the beans on anything on BSG that I haven’t seen yet. I believe I heard that S3 of BSG picks up 5 years after S2 ended. If this is the case, wouldn’t that explain the changes you mentioned in characters? That with the passage of time, and the stresses of the Cylon occupation it would naturally change people.

    wedestroymyths
    “Can a TV show be art?”

    Absolutely TV can be considered art, but in its own category. Because its constraints of time, budget and network pressures are unique influences to the medium that film, books, etc do not face. I don’t see Lost as a grounbreaking show in the reaml of episodic TV or in the offbeat nature of things. That was done previously and done better by other shows, like Twin Peaks and X-Files (though it wasn’t truely episodic). Where I think Lost has raised the standards is in its production values. It is unmatched cinematically, the views and camera work is better than anything yo usee elsewhere. And the full orchestration is also something you don’t get in other shows. I do think Lost is a high quality show, in its production values, but not not in the area of writing and direction.

    wedestroymyths
    “There’s actually a great thread at the fuselage for constructive criticism that is largely intelligent and fair minded.”

    The Fuselage is moderated with FAR too heavy of a hand to elicit honest criticism of the show. It only allows the most mild and carefully worded criticism of the show. Criticizing Lost at the Fuselage is like criticizing the government in the old Soviet Union, only done in the most superficial of ways.

    Comment by Slone — February 18, 2007 @ 10:01 am

99. 

    docarzt
    “Slone, continuing to place yourself on the high ground and attack my debating ‘technique’ isn’t going to change the fact that your initial attack on LOST was a series of insignificant nit-picks.”

    Congradulations, you are quite skilled at all the dirty tricks of debating. First you tried a nonsequiter, then you resorted to a Strawman, and when I called you on all these tricks you resorted to playing the victim. That completes the trifecta. Is it a case that you’re not use to someone who actually know how to conduct a discussion challenging you here? Or do you just not have the capacity to to back up the drivel you spew with logical arguments? You’ve about used up all the tricks to dodge and avoid actually saying anything. The only question remaining is whether you’ll admit defeat or try to wriggle off the hook again.

    Comment by Slone — February 18, 2007 @ 10:13 am

100. 

     Slone
     To paraphrase our beloved Hurley:”Dude, you’re kidding, right?”

     Comment by JDSalinga — February 18, 2007 @ 10:20 am

101. 

     Slone: The Fuselage is moderated with FAR too heavy of a hand to elicit honest criticism of the show. It only allows the most mild and carefully worded criticism of the show. Criticizing Lost at the Fuselage is like criticizing the government in the old Soviet Union, only done in the most superficial of ways.

     I want some of what Slone’s having!

     How about an example yourself, Slone? I’ve been an active member on the Fuselage for over six months, and haven’t seen one example of this. There is plenty of tough criticism over there. I for one was not happy with the 6-episode miniseason arc, and was quite vocal about it. Wasn’t moderated once.

     What, because most of the folks there are supporters of the show, which apparently wouldn’t agree with you, you’re going to compare environment there to the USSR? Holy cow… thanks for another good laugh. Isn’t there a nice BSG fanboy board where your time would be better spent?

     Don’t worry though, I won’t expect a response… “BSG is better! The Fuselage is the KGB!” hehe…

     Comment by Mark — February 18, 2007 @ 10:29 am

102. 

     Mark
     “Don’t worry about it Slone (ignoring me from here out.) You already started out on that foot. I pointed out several areas of BSG inconsistency in my earlier post, which you chose to ignore in quoting only the first sentence and skipping the examples.”

     You mentioned no examples, that’s my entire point. You mentioned some general themes. How can I address issues that you didn’t clearly raise? When I was asked to back up my statements I provided something specific from the show for each of my criticism. You can’t say ‘the BSG characters are inconsistent’ and expect me to challenge that claim, because raised thusly it’s just an overall opinion. I have no specifics to challenge, or to provide counterpoint to.

     Mark
     “Again, I don’t fault anyone for their personal preferences… but to hold BSG up as the standard of high quality writing, exemplifying consistency and logical plot development, then I’m not surprised you have such grating problems with Lost.”

     Sorry, but I never said that. You’re putting words in my mouth and then criticizing me on that basis. You folks really need to learn what a Strawman is and what a bullshit tactic it is. El Prez asked me to name a show better than Lost, which I did. I didn’t say the shows on my list were perfect, or the standard of high quality, or examples of exemplimentary consistency. Every show on my list has it’s faults. But those faults are much less severe and much fewer than Lost’s.

     Comment by Slone — February 18, 2007 @ 10:39 am

103. 

     Jonno
     “If you don’t like where it’s going, just stop watching.”

     Two million people did just that last Wednesday night. And in large part that is what spawned Doc’s diatribe. The media saw those numbers and smelled blood in the waters. So keep up the good work, keep chasing folks away from Lost, and you’ll see a lot more articles in the media about Lost’s impending doom.

     Comment by Slone — February 18, 2007 @ 10:42 am

104. 

     JDSalinga
     “BSG? Gimme a break, it was cancelled here for lack of an audience…”

     But is that an indictment of BSG, or the number of discerning posters here? Given the success of BSG at other forums, it would appear to be the latter. And is reinforced by the difficulty y’all seem to have in constructing logical arguments.

     Comment by Slone — February 18, 2007 @ 10:50 am

105. 

     did anybody see what someone just posted on the topic page about…”In the episode, the lady selling desmond the ring calls him desmond david hume, look up david hume on wikipedia…..very very interesting”!!! It mentions “John Locke”

     Comment by Tool — February 18, 2007 @ 10:57 am

106. 

     Slone, I have a feeling that you are someone who goes to the movies and every time something fantastical happens that does not occur in reality you scream, “no way, that would never happen!” I have friends like that (nitpickers), but they (as you seem to do) still are ultimately entertained or they wouldn’t keep coming back. You are entitle to your opinion, and you make some good points. I just think nitpicking takes away from the overall experience (for you). I believe a lot of the inconsistencies you’re seeing will be tied up. Just have a little more patience and enjoy all the good in a show that has a lot of great.

     Comment by cap10tripps — February 18, 2007 @ 11:18 am

107. 

     Slone
     Geez, talking of debatting, you keep sayin the same thing over & over again. In french it’s called ‘Illusion de grandeur’. If u had read the whole thing maybe u would’ve understood what I meant. BSG was cancelled cos nobody liked it, thought it was non sense, not well done, clichée sci-fi…therefore no audience. I’m surprised I have to spell everything out for you, you being such a great debatter…I bet ni the future you’ll have some intricate screwed up theory why Lost bounces back when it does. So let’s face it here: your ranting is for one sole reason & that’s to get some attention from dorks like me who actually thought your dissent was genuine & not one giant ego trip. Just look at the puerile things u aks Doc just to get a reaction…hilarious…& please don’t use the word “logic”….

     Comment by JDSalinga — February 18, 2007 @ 11:18 am

108. 

     By the way I completely agree w/ El Prez. Let’s get back to theories, thoughts, mysteries, and all the interesting info you can find here. That is what makes this place so important to the fans. FYI Des seems to be up to something w/ his looping. Any thoughts?

     Comment by cap10tripps — February 18, 2007 @ 12:23 pm

109. 

     The only thing about the show that has ever consistently annoyed me is the ridiculous amount of commercials, but that’s just prime-time TV. As Harvey Firestein put it, “For networks, programming is just filler between commercials”. As for the show itself, I think when the writers and producers began responding to directly to the fans (as they have alluded to in interviews) in terms of the show’s production, directly correlates to when the series really began to take a nosedive (season 2 for example). There are some episodes that were obviously filler in season (anything involving Sun & Jin for example). I think the powers that be need to say “this is the story were going to give you” and just deliver it, instead of trying to please everybody. When they did that, the surprises were more surprising, the cliffhangers really grabbed you by the sack, and the whole show, was overall much more compelling.

     Comment by Daniel — February 18, 2007 @ 12:52 pm

110. 

     I gave a pretty explicit example of last episode’s storyline, Slone.

     That’s fine, we’re taking this off-topic anyway.

     Comment by Mark — February 18, 2007 @ 1:38 pm

111. 

     I’m not going to wade too deeply into the waters of the larger debate about Lost having inconsistencies, etc.

     I think that part of the problem with Lost’s fan-base is that things like this are cyclical. Lost was a ratings and critical darling in its first season. It was new, it was fresh, it was revolutionary in a number of ways.

     Now what about another show like BSG? It’s a great show too, albeit for different reasons. It kind of flew under the radar for the first season. It received all kinds of critical acclaim in season 2, and its fan-base and ratings have grown significantly. Will it get even bigger? I doubt it. Most likely, it will suffer a slow decline in numbers just like Lost, as the novelty wears off for fans, and other good shows appear on the TV landscape, competing for people’s TV-watching hours. Already I’ve heard rumblings that fans are saying BSG season 3 is garbage compared to BSG season 2. This may or may not be the case, I can’t comment as I only watch BSG about every second or third episode.

     Enter a show like Heroes. Serialized, ensemble cast, blends reality and fantasy/sci-fi elements, large over-arching mysteries, etc. Sounds a lot like Lost. Go figure, it’s a big hit in it’s first season, ratings are consistently going up, everything is rosy. Will it sustain this fanbase and critical acclaim year after year? I doubt it.

     At some point, the writers/directors of a show are going to produce an episode that isn’t going to please everybody. Even if the quality of the show is maintained at a consistent level, certain fans are going to get upset over some aspect of the show (mysteries not being solved quickly enough, favorite characters being killed off, etc.) So certain fans of the show are going to give up on it.

     Add to all this the long hiatus over Christmas and the time-slot change, it’s no wonder there has been a drop-off in numbers. I for one think that last week was probably a bit of a blip due to Valentine’s day. (I know I didn’t tune in because I was out with my wife). I will be interested to see if the numbers bounce back, or continue to decline.

     In the end, it matters little to me, because the show would have to make some major blunders in order to lose me as a fan. If that makes me more tolerant of ‘inconsistencies’ as Slone would put it, so be it. I thought there were a few gems in the mini-season, despite the fact that overall I must agree that taken as a whole 6-episode arc, it was a bit dragged out. The last two episodes have been absolutely stellar, and I can’t wait to see what’s in store for the rest of the season.

     Comment by kilroy — February 19, 2007 @ 11:20 am

112. 

     Oh my god, this post just summarized everything I’ve been thinking and arguing for the past couple of months. Thank you! I agree with it completely.

     Comment by John — February 21, 2007 @ 11:23 am

113. 

     Let me also just emphasize that I think this is the key:

     “The fact that they continue to release episodes that provide provocative and compelling additions to the overall mystery of the show is an absolute blessing, not a source of frustration. Anybody who thinks it is simply does not possess the attention span for this.”

     People can use the excuse of the scheduling, but I think the real issue is that most people who started watching Lost just aren’t ready to handle a show that is so different than what they are used to. It’s not a “safe” show like Grey’s Anatomy or Desperate Housewives, and people aren’t used to the directions Lost is taking, so they cry out that it’s losing its way (nevermind that CC and DL said it’s been planned out for 4-5 seasons already).

     Comment by John — February 21, 2007 @ 11:41 am

114. 

     put a fork in it. the show is done.

     that was the worst episode of the series, and arguably on all of TV.

     Comment by foobar — February 21, 2007 @ 8:05 pm

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