News Flash! More Black Hole Connections?
In LOST - Not in Portland, Juliet gives the exact amount of time she has been on the island. Some have traced this date back to 9/6/2001. I’ve been using archive.org to look at the front pages of popular news sites during that time to determine if an event on that day is a clue, or not.
So far the only thing that really jumps out at me is the fact that on that date, cosmologists and astronomers announced compelling evidence that the center of our galaxy was a super massive black-hole. If there were not copious appearances of black holes and galaxies (a milky way like galaxy appears in the brainwashing sequence interspersed with pics of a sail boat), I’d dismiss it. But it is safe to assume there could be meaning behind this.
Okay this will sound crazy but after all this black hole and time stuff…
What if the island is home to some small black hole, or black hole like thing. A rip in space time. This would answer a couple questions.
1. Why can no one leave? Black Holes have event horizons which allow nothing to escape them.
2.One theory about Black Holes is that since they can bend light, time itself would slow down or stop inside the event horizon causing perpetuity.
3. The electromagnetism could be a direct result of this black hole. and releasing the energy allowed the black hole to remain safe. Now really bad things are going to happen that the black hole can’t release its energy. Maybe time is slowing down, maybe it is now stopping…
Comment by Jalocke — February 8, 2007 @ 9:23 am
So the question now is not just WHERE ARE THEY? but also WHEN ARE THEY?
Comment by AnotherOther — February 8, 2007 @ 9:47 am
i just thought it was crazy that she got onto the island on our around the time of 9/11….
Comment by Andrew — February 8, 2007 @ 9:48 am
It’s also interesting that Karl’s guard was reading “A Brief History of Time.”
Comment by Phildo — February 8, 2007 @ 10:25 am
WOW, great find!!
Comment by mike — February 8, 2007 @ 10:38 am
Okay so here is kind of a crazy theory but after this last episode Im thinking it might be feasible and it would sure explain a lot.
For refrence: When i say black hole I mean any kind of crazy spacial anomaly here, though black hole is what I am currently thinking of.
Here is what got me thinking: (A shout out to DocArtz from the tailsection for posting this stuff)
1. Ardo’s book was “A Brief History of Time” By Steven Hawking. The page was opened to info about black holes
2. Mittelos is a anagram for Lost Time.
3. The date that Juliet left is when scientists in the real world found fairly conclusive evidence that the center of our galaxy is a massive black hole.
4. Numerous refrences to time and something being up with time from the producers.
Here’s what I am thinking. Now bear with me here.
That thing in the island that the Swan was releasing energy from was actually a black hole. Crazy right? Maybe not.
Lets look at this for a second.
1. Why can no one find the island? Well Black Holes are supposed to trap all light within the event horizon and not let it out. This would prevent anyone from seeing it. Or from getting any readings from it.
2. Why can no one leave the island? Black Holes have event horizons which allow nothing to leave and draw everything back towards the center.
3. Perhaps the “sickness” is actually a result of the proximity to the Black Hole. Maybe the “sickness” also has an effect on birth and pregnancy, hence needing Juliet on the island and the injecting of Claire.
But wait a second. If it was a black hole it would have swallowed the earth up. I hear you and here is my response.
1. This is what the hatch was for. The Swan station was meant to be there to control the black hole, to control its energy, and release it safely.
2. This might also explain what happened to Dharma. They were doing research and the incident was when the Swan failed and didnt release the energy. it almost destroyed everything however, they managed to harness it again. Now teams must continuely push the button so as to stop the “End of the World”
This explanation also helps explain what might be going on with time on the island.
1. One theory about black holes is that since they trap light, time within the event horizon is at a stand still. People can act normaly but time itself does not pass.
2. Perhaps now that the Hatch is gone, time will begin to slow down, and maybe even stop.
3. Maybe adam and eve were preserved by the black hole and have been there forever.
Now I can sense your next question. What about the black smoke? Well here is where I combine in an old theory of mine….
1. The black smoke and the island are seperate from the black hole. They were here first. Before the Others, before Dharma, before Hanso. They are ancient and powerful mystic spirts. The black smoke being a physical manifestation of the island. The island has drawn these people here to save the world. They must stop the black hole from destroying everything. (For those who believe the Lost Experience could play in, maybe this what Valenzettis equations referred too)
2. This would really capture perfectly the science vs. faith aspect of the show. Two competing powerful forces. Who will win?
And the next question.. What about Walt and the kids, and the whole psychic thing?
1. The Others are trying to get the kids with psychic powers because they want to control the black hole in some other way. Perhaps the power of the mind is much stronger and could more easily contain the breach.
Okay so now what? The hatch is gone and everyone is dead?
1. No. Now that the hatch is gone, the island will slowly start to disappear as the black hole starts to consume matter. Imagine the coolness of Locke finding an area on the island that has fallen away from the universe. Also now desmond can see the future as his proximity to the blast and the black hole has warped time for him. Now the Losties may or may not team up with the others to stop the black hole and prevent the destruction of the world.
(as a note this also ties in very well with the Valenzetti equation from TLE. If you believe that stuff will come into play)
Personally I think this idea would be my perfect ideal for how the should would be. Science vs. Faith! I think it would be awesome. I mean it would be epic.
But what do you guys think. I put a lot of thought in this so try and read it all before posting. Thanks guys. Im so glad Lost is back and speculation can begin anew.
Comment by Jalocke — February 8, 2007 @ 10:47 am
Galaxy’s = Possessive (i.e.: the galaxy’s vastness)
Galaxies = Plural (i.e.: three galaxies)
Really, how hard is it?
’s can NEVER be plural (except if you are talking about individual letters such as p’s and q’s)!
Comment by spellchecker — February 8, 2007 @ 11:00 am
Well the creators of the show claimed to have known what the basic story behind the island was all along, so this seems like something that could realistically be have conceived at the shows inception. A pretty solid theory. I don’t think the island is disappearing or dissolving I just think that the hatch was regulating this “black hole” or force and now that it’s gone, time on the island relative to the rest of the world has again started to shift. Weather it’s slowing relatively or speeding up relatively, I’m not sure. If it’s a black hole and time on the island is slower, it would make sense to see walt as a teenager sometime soon…
Comment by Charlie Lesoine — February 8, 2007 @ 11:31 am
The theory you have proposed is well thought out but a couple of things stick in my mind.
1. Black holes are a presence that current human technology cannot harness. I mean, the closest theorized black hole is the center of the milky way so I do not see how the writers could make that connection. we cant even figure out cold fusion much less harness the energy from arguably the greatest force in the galaxy.
2. Ben promises people that they can return home so he must have some way of doing so. Sure he could be lying but we have no proof of that yet. Furthermore, Ben showed Jack the Red Sox WS win so time must be consistent as he would not have this tape.
Your analysis has got me thinking though due to its thoroughness. Here is what my take on the whole “black hole/time” concept. We all know that one of the best proposed ways to “time travel” is to use a black hole which could create what is known as a wormhole. this wormhole effectively bends time and space and could theoretically bend it enough so that it folds back over on itself allowing people to go back to another “time”. i know this isnt a good explanation but just go on wikipedia to get a better version with graphics.
As I stated above, humans cannot currently reach a blackhole per se but can create a reasonable facsimilie in theory. I might be off on this but I will explain it as i understand it. An artificial black hole can be created if you can condense matter to a density where it will rip spacetime. My theory goes that the Dharma initiative figured this out and this explains the fact that no one can get off the island. there is only one way in and out and you have to take the exact coordinated ben gave michael. It can also explain the statue with four toes.
Here is how it applies to the overall arc of the show: The Others understand this concept of “time/space travel” and that is why they need people like Ethan and Juliet who can help with fertility. The animals are there to create an ecosystem on the new earth. Desmond, the old ship from the 1800’s and the Lost cast were all “accidents” and happen to run into the exact point where event horizon is. The whole “saving the world” rap is warranted becasue this group had originally set out to find a new place to colonize as earth is becoming too crowded. The wormhole they created took them somewhere but they didnt know if it was the same earth they left or a land in a parallel universe. this is the reason for the orginal “quarantine” label, no one knew the impact the new land would have. They needed the strong to help their cause (jack, kate and sawyer) and they had started experimenting with how life would be in the new colony (hence the “JCrew) setting at the beginning of season 3).
Now, I dont expect this to unwrap the LOST story or solve anything but it is just something for people to think about. I dont know how the communication is done throught the outside world or how the polar team heard the disturbance but maybe we will learn that this season.
As you can see our opinions are similar, I just put a different spin on the black hole part. Not trying to argue, just trying to add
Comment by sean — February 8, 2007 @ 11:37 am
What I want to know spellchecker is how hard it is to maintain that super anal facade of yours
Comment by docarzt — February 8, 2007 @ 11:40 am
Hey Charlie. I agree. I doubt the island is dissappearing… yet. I would say end of season 4 we start seeing things disappear. And when the island is gone, then the world will go next. Its a crazy theory and it took me forever to think through but I think its definately possible.
Also I would like to add that the creation of the black hole could have been done by a particle accelerator. Scientists today are trying to do it. And also the black hole was probably protected by the em shield so as to stop the destruction of the island. now that its gone? Who knows.
Comment by jalocke — February 8, 2007 @ 11:43 am
Hey thanks for adding. Its possible though I dont know about the alternate universe and such. Also we are currently trying to make black holes with particle accelerators. Its not too far off. I wouldnt put it past the tptb to incorporate slightly futuristic possibilities.
Comment by jalocke — February 8, 2007 @ 11:57 am
I think the black hole time theory by jalocke is very solid, and could help explain what’s happened with Desmond. The fact that Desmond can somehow see the future might be due to the fact that if the swan was some kind of release to make sure time was kept in a constant manner, it would explain to some degree why Desmond can “see” in the future. Possibly, the discharge from the swan was so close to Desmond that it affected him more so than Locke. So, because he was so close to the blast, time for him is unstable and he could just be coming in and out of time in a nonlinear fashion. Also, the fact that Desmond, Locke, and Eko were so close to the blast might explain how they survived. If somehow, the island is near a blackhole, it’s possible that the swan somehow breached a barrier protecting the island and everything in it from crossing over into the blackhole. Considering that when the hatch exploded, it seemed as if everything was just flying towards one place, it would seem consistent with the black hole theory, meaning that everything would just shrink down to an infintley small thing, just like things would if they were near an actual black hole. Further more, the discharge from the swan could have stopped time for Desmond, Locke, and Eko, explaining why they survived and everything around them did not.
But that’s just my two cents
Comment by smartsingh24 — February 8, 2007 @ 12:01 pm
Black holes and galaxies and a galaxy’s black hole?!?! Really?!!? Have you people lost your damned minds? Do you think the casual viewer will stick around as soon as the word black hole enters into a conversation?? Please!
It was one book and you’re jumping on it like it’s the answer to the whole series. Time moves at the same exact pace, everywhere on this planet. Unless you live in a podunk town where it feels like time is standing still.
Relax with the black hole theories. It ain’t happening.
Comment by El Prez — February 8, 2007 @ 12:02 pm
Thats wierd…. I didnt know people hated sci-fi. I guess that the 90 million viewers (actual number) who watched Star Trek must have all died. Or how bout StarGate. And actualyl you are wrong time does not move at the same pace everywhere on this planet. Einstein’s theory of relativity. We all have individual time. In fact the time for my fingers typing is different than my arm which is not moving. Learn a little physics bud.
Comment by jalocke — February 8, 2007 @ 12:09 pm
But El Prez, my friend…. it makes for such great conversation!
Comment by docarzt — February 8, 2007 @ 12:17 pm
Id love to hear your take on the theory DocArtz. Do you think the average american is too stupid too accept something like this? Do you believe its possible? What loop holes do yo find?
Comment by jalocke — February 8, 2007 @ 12:22 pm
The “quarantine” may have been a precaution for unknown time-space problem that could be on the island. For example before the swan was created, time distortion could have been based on proximity from the “black hole” or force meaning that time at the beach moved faster than areas closer to the center of the island. We may find now that the people still living in otherville will be aging slower than the people on alcatraz or vice versa…
Comment by Charlie Lesoine — February 8, 2007 @ 12:31 pm
hmm thats a good point. Over time the quaruntine grew unnecessary but the hatch people never found out. now that the hatch is gone, spacial, and temporal distortions could start springing up all over the place. This is my science theory. Currently I am mixing it with my faith theory so as to create Jalocke’s Super Theory. Ill post it when I get it.
Comment by jalocke — February 8, 2007 @ 12:43 pm
This whole time change thing is really starting to make a lot of sense to me, it’s just crazy how they would drop all of this on us in one episode like this though. Maybe it’s a trick though, because this just seems too obvious right now. I’m sure that Damon and Carlton know that the hardcore viewers disect each episode and look for all these easter eggs, so why would they make it so blatant? there has to be more to it.
One ting that I did find particularly interesting though is that if you recall in season 2, there was a scene with hurley and sayid in which sayid is trying to fix the radio that hurley found and he’s trying to find a frequency and this classical song comes up. then hurley goes onto say that the signal could be coming from anywhere… or anytime. when i first saw that scene i didnt think much of it but the producers obviously consider it important, because they make sure to include it in EVERY recap episode. at first i though it was such a pointless scene but now i see that it couldve been a huge hint from awhile ago…
Comment by BeLO — February 8, 2007 @ 12:47 pm
well since we can pretty much figure all of the dharma experiments have been somewhat successful, how about the fact that the ‘original’ hanso website (http://lxicon.com/hanso/activeproject.html this is an archive of the original) has a reference to ‘The Hanso Quest for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence’.
if this one quest which is left absent from the new websites and from the storyline thus far, maybe its only because the writers realised that it discredits a company to have such an initiative, and should be more of a ‘top secret’ project.
lets say this is a real project still, maybe ET could’ve helped with the forcefield around the island, or contributed to an artificial black hole.
check out the site, its fun and old school! and its so old it still has the abc.disney disclaimer lol
Comment by adam — February 8, 2007 @ 12:48 pm
Ja… I think Black Holes do factor into this somehow. My take on it is that the more heady explanations you can dismiss.. they aren’t going to make it so complicated the average Joe can’t understand it. One aspect of it I’m fairly confident of is that bending time and space is definitely a part of the mystery. This doesn’t require a black hole, but something close to it… obviously. I’ve always found the idea that Adam and Eve are people we have known to be romantic, in a sense. A time loop that is out of phase with the outside world and requires some contrition of the soul to escape. Who knows… lots of wonderful, twisted possibilities.
Comment by docarzt — February 8, 2007 @ 12:57 pm
Jalocke-Until the survivors of flight 815 jump into the Enterprise and fly off the island, I’d reserve the sci-fi label for shows like Stargate. And if you want to count numbers of viewers over a period of time, 90 million might be right for Star Trek but don’t forget that during the same time, Home Improvement was on and probably attracted over 200 million viewers. Proof that the average television viewer likes things SIMPLE.
We are all talking about a mainstream hit television show that set itself apart right off the bat by keeping things in the real world. No aliens. No purgatory. No NANOBOTS.
My point is that as soon as one book is put out there as an easter egg, the whole LOST community jumps on a theory and beats it into submission. For all we know, the writers could be creating their own version of Oprah’s book club. I’m all for people educating themselves. and it’s fun to theorize and I apologize for raining on the black hole parade. Although I don’t think it rains in black holes but my 3rd grade education never covered physics….
The bottom line is that I give the black hole theory about as much credence as the theory that they are all rabbits. I mean, if A Wrinkle in Time is held to the same standard as A Brief History in Time, then maybe they all are Bugs Bunny. Oh wait! There was an actual rabbit in one of the episodes. So far that’s rabbits 1, black holes 0.
As far as we all have individual time, I doubt a minute in your world or in your fingers and arm moves any faster than a minute in my world.
By the way, BUD, you asked what we thought. Take the good with the bad.
Comment by El Prez — February 8, 2007 @ 1:03 pm
P.S. Regardless of beliefs, we are all in this together. I support the free thinking of your theory.
And Doc, I think this is great fun and great conversation!!
Comment by El Prez — February 8, 2007 @ 1:05 pm
However, I would disagree that it is the average joe watching Lost. I think the average viewer has above average intelligence because they are watching a serial show, and are following a complex evolving story line. I mean look at Star Trek. That show had time contiuums and black holes, and all other sorts of crazy and complex stuff. And yet with a 2 minute explication from Geordi LaForge we understood. We knew what was going on. maybe Sayid knows a bit about this and he gives us the run down. Besides people have a fascination with Black Holes and I think most people already know the information that would be used. You know Light cant escape it, time warp created. It doesnt matter how, it just matters that it does. People will accept it. I dont know I feel that the average audience would understand it.
Comment by jalocke — February 8, 2007 @ 1:07 pm
So maybe it’s not a black whole but it seems likely that there be some sort of time distortion field, or shield on the island or protecting the island thus making it unreachable or unseeable from the outside world. And this has something to do with giant superpowerfull magnets in the ground or something. Remember the snowglobe.
Comment by Charlie Lesoine — February 8, 2007 @ 1:12 pm
I will take the good with the bad. However, I do not accept blantant denial. I am not trying to solve the show. That secret is locked deep in the producers heads. Im trying to make an explanation. I doubt my theory is real. What I am doing is thinking. And also its a proven fact that everything has individual time. Its Einstein’s Theory of Relativity. Do a search on it. Its not much difference but yes the difference is there. If you were to move things very fast like the speed of light time would slow down or even stop. One theory suggests that since black holes can bend light, perhaps they can stop time. Its an interesting notion. However, the Theory of Relativity is fact. Its true. Just look on wikipedia or something.
Comment by jalocke — February 8, 2007 @ 1:13 pm
I’ll refrain from using any black hole references in my comment (except that one). OK, this may be a bit far fetched, but here goes… While Mittelos is an anagram for “Lost Time”, it’s also German for something that “lacks a middle” or is “centerless”.
I seem to remember that during Juliet’s first interview with the rep from Mittleos that he mentioned Juliet was able to medically impregnate a male field mouse in the lab. So what if Mittelos’ purpose (and that of the Others and their Island experiment) is to successfully achieve male pregnancy? Could Mittelos, rather than meaning centerless, be more symbolic of something that is womb-less, e.g., men?
The Others seem to be fixated on male babies/kids, what with pregnant Claire’s and Walt’s kidnapping. Plus, (I think) all of Rousseau’s friends who died were men; were they used as guinea pigs?
I know this doesn’t take into account of all the freakish goings on on the islands, but it’s my shot at trying to explain some of them…
Comment by Al — February 8, 2007 @ 1:49 pm
jalocke, great work !
Comment by Stef — February 8, 2007 @ 1:57 pm
Jalocke, nice theory, but it’s full of smattering. (Looked that word up actually.
)
There can’t be a black hole around or on the island. As you say, the mass of a black hole is so mass-ive, that its gravity does not even allow light to escape. Hence the term black hole. Everything, really everything, in the proximity of a black hole in consumed by it and cannot escape it. Humans or space ships or planets are squished to sub-atomic particles (figuratively speaking), even before they get within a hundred miles of the event horizon. Nobody knows what is behind an event horizon, but I doubt it’s just another earth-like planet with nice beaches when there’s so much force all around it.
Then on Theory of Relativity. You are referring to time dilation. Yes, your fingers are on a different time as your head. But it’s not more than a picosecond (or even less). And also it’s not because your fingers move, the effect of the earth spinning (gravitational time dilation) is much stronger. E.g. they have put super-precise clocks on different floors of a building. One in the lobby and one on a higher floor. The clocks were running only nanoseconds out of sync.
So, for any real measurable “time travel” to occur, you either need a massive black hole that squishes everything around it or you must travel at speeds close to c (the speed of light). I don’t see either happening in Lost.
Sorry.
One possibility is of course, that your theory is true and they just invented a completely different universe where all this works out. But this would just be laughable and considered pseudo-science (fiction).
Comment by Yeti — February 8, 2007 @ 2:05 pm
Wer bitte benutzt denn “mittelos”? Steht das überhaupt im Duden?
Just replying to Al that “mittelos” is not a correct German word (afaik). It sound to me at first like “mittellos” (out of money, poor). But they are obviously not.
Comment by Yeti — February 8, 2007 @ 2:10 pm
Ahh..the magic word: wikipedia! I don’t doubt the factualness of your theory. As theories go, it’s very well thought out. My point is that the producers keep maintaining the character driven stories are more important than the mythology. A black hole and space time continuum theories are way deep. It’s easy to bypass in a show like Star Trek, which is driven by science fiction. You accept that logic when you are watching the Enterprise cruising through space. Hell, it’s even easy to accept during a show like Heroes because they’ve laid the ground rules right from the beginning.
But this show isn’t like those shows. Besides the producers saying that everything has a logical, straightforward answer(and yes, black holes are logical and real), I think the island as a black hole theory would be a stretch of the viewers imagination. But saying we’re all smart because we follow a serialized show with a complex evolving storyline doesn’t make the theory right. Because in my mind, the nanobots are the black smoke theory makes perfect sense. It’s futuristic, true, but it’s just as thought provoking and difficult to explain. It requires a deeper commitment of science than I think they want to throw out there right now.
Yes, I think this show attracts a higher than average viewer. But this show is made for the masses to enjoy. The show’s success lay in the numbers of viewers it produces. I hope they never dumb it down to appeal to a broader spectrum but they can’t afford to have people like us talking about the show over the company water cooler, talking about how awesome it is and have someone who’s never seen the show ask what it’s about and they hear the words black hole. Unless you work for Carl Sagan or Stephen Hawking or NASA, chances are that person isn’t going to want to jump into the show as a new viewer. Increased viewership is the networks bread and butter. Take the black smoke for example…we never saw it full blown, until Eko encountered it. The fact that that’s never been explained alienated a lot of viewers because the show went from high drama to what would appear to be science fiction. A black hole theory would blow people’s minds, which would cause more people to tune into more simple shows.
Your theory holds water. I just don’t think it’s for this show. Not that deep anyway.
Comment by El Prez — February 8, 2007 @ 2:14 pm
pseudo-science…fiction. I sworre thats what the show was. And I understand all of this. However, I do not expect that the answer can be completely true. There is going to be fudging. Thats how it works. Something doesn’t make sense but we just accept it. And Im not saying that behind every black hole, lies an island. Im saying that one was artificially created on the island… say through a particle accelerator, an actual possibility. Then it almost destroyed the island however, the hatch was created to put an electromagnetic shield around the island, to protect it. Maybe it actually got dragged inside the black hole. and the shield prevents its destruction. Yes I know this impossible but we deal. The shield also prevents the hole from destroying the earth. Now that the shield is gone the hole will grow stronger. And the Losties must stop it before it destroys everything.
Comment by jalocke — February 8, 2007 @ 2:16 pm
According to physics isn’t time linear? Meaning it, like light, is always, and only, going forward? If this is true, it would be impossible to go back in time anyhow. Let’s say you get to the speed of light…time stands still at this point. For the person/object travelling at that speed. Time is still continuing as normal for everyone/thing else. So in essence, you could say a person/object could travel forward in time because everyone/thing would’ve aged as normal and the person/object didn’t age at all. But doing the reverse of that seems impossible. I mean, you can’t accelerate to negative speed of light because it’s acceleration so it’s always positive. And I don’t see how a black hole can just “tear” the space/time continuum. Coninuum means “a continuous extent, series, or whole.” If it was torn, it couldn’t be continuous anymore thus negating the very name that it goes by. But I hold no Ph.D.s.
Comment by boombalonga — February 8, 2007 @ 2:22 pm
Well now I am delving into Physics theories, and not even the accepted ones. When a black hole bends light into it. You have to wonder, if light is so fast and is faster than everything how could it be slowed down. Because thats what happens in a black hole, its slowed down and then reversed. So some scientists suggest that because a black hole is able to do this it actually is bending an absolute over itself. Its reversing light. When this happens, the singularity, or central point of a black hole rips through space. When it does this, time kind of ceases to exist and one can travel freely through it. OThers suggest that this is actually ripping into a new dimension. its a cool theory with neat ideas. But this is a tangent. And its very theoretical.
and once again El Prez Im not trying to say that this theory is correct. Im just saying it fits and its interesting. Im trying to show a parallel to the show and see what people think. I mean I want to bea writer and this is how I would write the show. I mean this is a preliminary thing right now, I would have to delve deeper and do more research but this is pretty close to what I would do.
Comment by jalocke — February 8, 2007 @ 2:30 pm
Well Jalocke, do your thing!! It’s some deep stuff….run with it…LOST has to come to end sometime. A person such as yourself could write the next big thing. Regardless of theory, we are all united in our love for the show!
Comment by El Prez — February 8, 2007 @ 2:42 pm
Yeti, you’re right that the way it was spelled in the show, it’s not a current German word, but Mittellos, as you mentioned, is. In addition to meaning “poor”, it can mean “without means”.
But the way it was spelled in the episode, “mittelos”, can be translated literally as “without” “in the middle”. Either way, it could be symbolic of men being unable to conceive and that that’s what some of the island research is about… Hey, it’s my theory and I’m sticking with it!
Comment by Al — February 8, 2007 @ 2:42 pm
no hard feelings El Prez. Sometimes I get a bit heated when I defend myself and my viewpoints. Thanks for everyones reply to my theory. It took a lot of work and only thanks to DocArzt would I have even started. And here’s hoping I get the next good show out there.
Comment by jalocke — February 8, 2007 @ 2:45 pm
Oh my lord. Firstly, this black hole theory that you have (mostly) all blown out of proportion is absurd, its free range for the writers to write whatever the hell they want because nothing is entirely understood about black holes, to feature a controlled black hole on lost would be humiliating for the writers and fans.
Comment by sheepboy — February 8, 2007 @ 2:47 pm
Its not about being right sheepboy. Its about thinking creatively. Looking at signs, and symbols and trying to figure out how they “could” work together. Its the search that matters. I could care less if I am wrong. What i would rather you do is look at the theory. see the creativity, and thought that went into it and challenge me back to defend it. not by saying its dumb, but by saying so how does so and so work into it. I dont know if that could. I think many people miss the point of theorizing. By blasting theories you make it less enjoyable to share one’s creativity and thoughts. Try and be more open-minded
Comment by jalocke — February 8, 2007 @ 2:52 pm
Jalocke, you are right about creativity. And I am happy for you that it entertains you to think about these things. But what you are doing is brainstorming, not theorizing. Theories must stand within the framework of currently conceived facts and tested theories and they also need to be falsifiable, i.e. offer a way to prove them wrong or right.
What you’re suggesting would lead the show to become a totally absurd 1950s-like space show. And as somebody already put it, “the producers [say] that everything has a logical, straightforward answer”. What goes on inside a black hole is unknown. It’s like speculating what goes on on the insides of Mars in the 1950s. You know, Aliens living there underground in big colonies, coming to enslave us. It’s science fiction, but it’s not Lost. (Last time I checked it was Adventure, Drama, Mystery and Thriller)
However, I would agree with you that time is a key element here
Comment by Yeti — February 8, 2007 @ 3:12 pm
Couple things…
Sean, how does the black hole/time alteration theory explain the 4-toed statue?
I like the black hole theory, but think its not an ACTUAL black hole, maybe something similar that has some similar time altering affects. Maybe thats why the guard was studying it, just as a basic knowledge of time/black holes.
I think it goes WAY deeper than these theories. Damon and Carlton also talk about the connections between the characteres alot. I think that is an important piece to the overall puzzle, not a separate puzzle. Basically, I think their crazy connections, the numbers, the smoke monster, the island, and the time/space thing are all part of the same puzzle and need to be connected. The Black Hole Theory is cool, but I don’t think its enough to encompass everything thats going on.
Comment by AnotherOther — February 8, 2007 @ 3:22 pm
I think the funniest thing about terming a show like Lost as “sci-fi” - even though I agree - is that it, honestly, turns me off to it a bit. I think Lost is sci-fi, but it’s my favorite sci-fi show ever. I don’t watch sci-fi. Most of the time, sci-fi gets too “I read A Brief History of Time and now I think I’m Stephen Hawking!” I’m not that interested in the intricate workings of black holes. I watch too much tv for that. What I like about Lost is that it’s sci-fi for people who don’t know about science - sci-fi for people who don’t really watch sci-fi.
Think about it. Out of all of the survivors of Oceanic 815, are any of them scientists with an even passing knowledge of wormholes or the space-time continuum? No. They’re doctors, rock stars, fugitives, lottery winners and box-factory employees. Instead of having to listen to Geordi LaForge explain wormholes for two minutes, I get to see characters I can actually identify with as they try to wrap their heads around all of these things. It’s sci-fi for people who don’t understand (or care to research) intricate scientific theories. And the best part is that the writers understand that science is only the “how”. I agree with the producers that the “how” is much less important than the “who” on Lost. I’m a lot more interested in Sun & Jin’s marriage, Locke’s struggle with faith, Charlie’s battle with addiction and Juliet’s metamorphosis into a strong heroine (which I have faith is going to happen) than I am in why the sky turned purple.
Face it. As much as people love sci-fi, when a character in a sci-fi film says, “We got here by travelling through a wormhole,” that’s all they have to say. The geniuses in the audience get to go, “Wormhole! I know what that is!” And the non-geniuses (like me) get to go, “Wormhole? I’ll have to take their word on it.” It’s a plot device to get their ship to another location.
I think a black-hole/space-time continuum thing is totally possible, but I doubt they’re going to go so far in depth that they expect us all to read A Brief History of Time. At least, I’m hoping they don’t expect us to, because that will be the moment when the show leaves me behind.
Comment by Robin — February 8, 2007 @ 3:30 pm
Hey im not knocking you, as a lost fan and a physicist, I find it ludicrous to even suggest working in a black hole somewhere and fudging things so that they work, when very little is known about black holes as it is, you say be more open minded, why cant you be more closed minded? :p
Comment by sheepboy — February 8, 2007 @ 3:44 pm
PLEASE READ AND LET ME KNOW!
I like the theory behind the black hole. So it has been mentioned that we might see MICHEAL and WALT return at the end of this season. So I’m thinking since the numbers weren’t typed in and the hatch exploded that Micheal and Walt couldn’t escape. I’m thinking the typed numbers once pushed allow a window of opportunity for things to enter and things to leave the island. Now that they can’t enter the numbers and release/control the electromagnet charge no one can enter or leave. Possibly what Tom (Zeke) was talking about when he was inturrupted by Jack and Kate’s walkie talkie conversation last episode. Jack asked why didn’t they just take him to a doctor. Tom starts to say Well ever since the sky turned purple….blah. So what if the Others never knew that the computer released the charge. Thats why I think there are two fraction of Others. Ben, Tom, and Juliet etc (who didn’t know about the importance of the numbers) versus Dharma Others (who knew the severity of the numbers being pushed.)
Comment by HOMERMOOSE — February 8, 2007 @ 3:47 pm
people, keep in mind that this is not a sci-fi show. Look it up. It’s rated as drama/action/thriller/adventure (imdb, and everywhere else).
I think there are enough sci-fi shows out there with crazy black hole theories and stuff like that, making another one like that would just not make sense. Note that there are no hints anywhere in this or past seasons about people/the world being somewhere way in the future, so assuming harnessing black holes, and other phenomena make no sense at all. I grant you there are references to research, but not actual results.
Another thing to keep in mind is that none of the losties (so far from what we can tell) are “nerds” or understand much of physics or high end math, which would give them huge disadvantage at everything. Same goes for the others (the ones that are directly on the island). I grant you, we don’t know much about them just yet, but they seem to be non-scientific people just like the losties. They all seem to have generic/normal backgrounds with the exceptions of Jack, Julie, Sayid, Desmond, and Kelvin (doctors, military).
I would be very disappointed if this turned into another sci-fi show. Don’t get me wrong, I love and watch sci-fi shows, but one of the reasons why Lost appeals to me (and many people I know) so much is exactly that Lost is not about sci-fi. Don’t let me stop you with your theories, but don’t make too much of the book, either. Yes, details like that are usually pointers in Lost, but keep in mind that at some point the writers are going to start playing with this and the audience. First train the audience to pay attention to every single detail that’s out there, and then use that against the audience to leave them guessing and put them on false leads. Season 3 in the middle season (in one of the interviews with JJ, he said the plan was 5 or max 6 seasons, anything after that if ABC wanted to continue would be done by someone else) and it’s just about time to have fun and play with the audience a bit.
Comment by mayo — February 8, 2007 @ 4:30 pm
AnotherOther,
My thought was that the four toed statue is explained by the fact that the time rip took them to a parallel universe/other planet which is very simlilar to ours. The four toed statue represents the proof of a past civilization in this other place. Scientists have theorized that there are parallel universes which could be exactly like the one we live in.
Guys, I realize that this theory probably isnt right but for me it is just fun to speculate and learn in the process. the producers obviously have a theme here with all of the references and we are just doing our best to put the clues together. Also, these theories are not too far fetched as successful shows like “stargate SG1″, sliders and land of the lost used a time travel concept, sliders being the most black hole related. Granted it is high level, but i am sure it can be put into laymans terms for those that arent as crazy as all of us!
Comment by sean — February 8, 2007 @ 5:32 pm
Wasn’t Locke almost sucked in by the smoke in S1 finale? (maybe a reference to black holes)
Comment by kosmickaos — February 8, 2007 @ 6:49 pm
excellent analysis. it would be easier to say that the island isn’t literally part of a black hole, but has properties similar to a black hole (an event horizon that makes it invisible, the inability to escape, etc.) which is why the guard was reading about black holes. what makes the island have these properties? something to do with the electromagnetic anomaly that is inherent in the island most likely.
Comment by dave — February 8, 2007 @ 10:44 pm
Here’s an idea I’m surprised no one has developed yet: consider Isaac Asimov’s “Foundation” books, particularly the first one. A brilliant scientist foresees a major problem, the collapse of the Empire. He anticipates the way everything will break down, and tries to set up a mechanism that will prevent the total collapse, and contains the seeds of a rebirth. There he sets up an outpost on the edge of the galaxy and has certain types of people settle it. Seldon foresees so much, and plans the development of the Foundation, so that there are elements in place that seem very manipulative to those people who settle it and don’t know the Master Seldon Plan. As events unfold, and because they don’t know the greater purpose of the Foundation itself, it can be very hard to make sense of what’s going on, from the inside.
An analogous theory for Lost can be developed, and it can just fullsale import a lot of the suggestions made in this thread above. The foreseen problem is something to do with electromagnetic buildup, possibly a black hole hinted at so much in the most recent episode. Moreover, the analogy has a place for other elements of the Lost mysteries as well. The analog of the brilliant scientist (Seldon) might be a number of brilliant scientists, those who set up the Dharma Initiative (DeGroots). We even have the Hanso FOUNDATION. The Island is something like a Foundation, the Others were the initial recruits to the greater Purpose, which maybe they don’t all totally understand themselves (but maybe Ben’s got some special insider knowledge). There are manipulative elements in place that are hard to understand from the inside (the various Hatchs, the button) and so on.
Again, there are lots of pieces of the puzzle which look like they can fit into this sort of framework. Moreover, the positing of a deus ex machina in the form of a Seldon-like figure is one thing that might actually be able to explain, without stretching plausibility TOO far, the mysteries and coincides that are stacked so high around the Lost characters, their connections, the numbers. This type of theory might actually work. Of course, the devil is in the details…
Comment by thedarkness — February 8, 2007 @ 10:50 pm
Excellent theories and debate here, folks. Enjoyable reading! One thing that I believe is a concern that I didn’t see addressed here (apologies if I overlooked it.)
If the others know what the hatch is protecting–say, something as critically important as what many are discussing here, something on the cataclysmic scale of a potential black hole–wouldn’t they have made sure to keep the hatch manned? To automate the process? No reinforcements were sent for Kelvin, or Desmond, and they were content to let the lostaways deal with it. In the case of Ben, he led Locke down the path to stop pushing the button.
Comment by mj — February 8, 2007 @ 10:51 pm
I totally agree with the darkness. My usage of the term black hole, as mentioned above states that Im really talking about any kind of spacial phenomenon. Black hole just fits the circumstance well. It could very well be any other kind of large rip, tear, or other wierd thing with space.
and mj, the others on the island may not know what it does. Perhaps it was forseen that the Others would not want to push if found out. In Foundation one of the most important things was that the second foundation never be found. When it was the seldon plan was destroyed. congrats the darkness, I never thought to incorporate Foundation.
Comment by jalocke — February 9, 2007 @ 4:35 am
Please forgive any wrong names.I think, with the time/space theme that has been going on and this young lady “alex” helping Sawyer and Kate escape, then another older woman named Danielle on another island, but close by…..This aging and bending time theme…Could Alex be a young ( cloned) Danielle? She can’t leave her island because they don’t know what would happen if she saw herself, but 40 years older? It would tie in the fertility and time speeding up/slowing down theories and why Juliet was so insistant that her “father” would kill them both.
Comment by T2 — February 9, 2007 @ 7:16 am
Not to be a bit proprietary, but I came up with essentially this same theory (actually, theories, including exactly how Desmond was affected by the Swan station being destroyed - see Peter Moon’s series of books on The Montauk Project and the Star Trek: NextGen finale “All Good Things…..” for a better appreciation of what’s happened to our boy…..as Q chides Picard, ‘you humans are such linear creatures’) on the earlier TTS Black Hole thread yesterday (but as we’re playing around with Time, I do believe in a bit of confluence too:) It so happens that there are true-life events that are very instructive to this line of thinking. Are most of you familiar with Edward Leedskalnin and his Coral Castle complex in southern Florida? This very slight Latvian immigrant was somehow able to move 2 million pounds of coral all by himself - twice, including a nine-TON door block that was so perfectly engineered it swung open with just the slightest push for many years. How did he do it? A clue: paying attention to the geographical qualities of Homestead and the entire state - why is it shaped that way, and how were planetary forces brought to bear upon the Sunshine State? T. Townsend Brown’s groundbreaking anti-gravitic work may also be helpful…..
Leedskalnin, like myself (thanks to environmental illness; long story) and many prominent alternative visionaries in multiple disciplines, came to believe that the secrets of the universe could be accessed simply by distilling them down to 2 things: variations in density and vibration. Gravity, he confirmed, was hardly constant around the planet and an understanding of lower-strength regions could be utilized to bring about seemingly miraculous feats. How does this relate to our discussion? The reason gravity is not constant can be found in the Earth’s electromagnetic field fluctuations relative to its distribution along the planet’s pole, other lines of force (such as tectonic plate intersections, for example) and differences in what is known as ‘angular momentum’, which results when 2 or more parts of any large astral body vibrate at different rates due to density, but I won’t go into that…..gravity and electromagnetism are intrinsically linked, however, because EMF fields significantly affect vibrational rates - mass is determined considerably by vibrational frequencies; lighter molecules tend to vibrate faster and more easily - less subject to the dictates of gravity and weak forces, thus they are more motile and form less dense matter - or even energy?
Our experience on Earth is very subjective, but still within a wide spectrum of individual baseline fundamental vibrations related to planetary conditions preceding our births, which is why one person can sometimes seem to experience Time differently from another. Or, to put it another way, the strongest individual vibration is only one of many, many lesser vibrations within the shared human experience, some of which may resonate at very comparable rates.
Time is absolutely NOT constant and merely an instrument to measure our lives, as I’m certain Desmond will prove to us in Ep 3:08; how we experience existence as material life forms is directly related to the hierarchy of vibrations associated with being human or sentient and the values that exist within this morphogenetic environment - change those values and our experience will inevitably be altered, as is surely happening with haste in the 21st century.
The DHARMA Initiative’s core mission, I’m fairly certain, was all about changing those values to suit whatever needs they might have had. Conditions ripe for metaphysical experiences (of particular interest to the deGroots) are best fostered when we are brought up to a vibrational rate (higher frequency, as with a radio) closer to what we might experience in purely energetic form removed from material drag, and consequently we can more easily resonate with higher-realm information and events at a quantum level, as we might when in spirit form (atheists and scientific dogmatists, please leave the room if this is beginning to offend your sensibilities…..) and therefore the whole string of ‘black hole’ clues may be D & C’s effort to suggest a island-based metaphor, something comparable to a black hole on multiple levels. In this case, the Swan device was Hanso’s attempt to create a localized electromagnetic field and manipulated environment by exploiting an existing phenomenon, probably related to the ‘falling star’, which may have been a meteor or, yes, a black hole fragment, although that IS unlikely…..and it did have the desirable secondary effect of rendering the island - both islands - effectively invisible.
Comment by ogam5 — February 9, 2007 @ 7:21 am
I obviously think the ‘time’ line of theory may have some legs to it. But I also think the whole ‘black hole’ subject may be a red herring by the writers. Or maybe they’re just boning up on anything time-related, in their quest to adjust the values of the numbers?
Comment by Marc R. — February 9, 2007 @ 7:29 am
Wow… Great work everyone.
Comment by cap10tripps — February 9, 2007 @ 7:36 am
I think we’re grazing the surface of what seems to be the central theme to LOST, science vs. faith. This black hole theory is very well thought out and plausible. There is also a theory building steam (at least in my head) about this island being Eden. Perhaps it’s secrets reveal origin of human existence and maybe even past, doomed civilizations. There are so many parallels to biblical stories/passages. It also seems the two main “lostaways” are Locke and Jack (Man of Faith, Man of Science). If the science (parallel universe/black hole) is the how, then the faith (black smoke/four toed statue/Jacob) is the why. I believe faith and science are not opposites as it has come to be in our time, but one in the same. My theory is that while the show will maintain a faith vs. science theme, in the end both will true.
Comment by cap10tripps — February 9, 2007 @ 7:54 am
I think we’re grazing the surface of what seems to be the central theme to LOST, science vs. faith. This black hole theory is very well thought out and plausible. There is also a theory building steam (at least in my head) about this island being Eden. Perhaps it’s secrets reveal origin of human existence and maybe even past, doomed civilizations. There are so many parallels to biblical stories/passages. It also seems the two main “lostaways” are Locke and Jack (Man of Faith, Man of Science). If the science (parallel universe/black hole) is the how, then the faith (black smoke/four toed statue/Jacob) is the why. I believe faith and science are not opposites as it has come to be in our time, but one in the same. My theory is that while the show will maintain a faith vs. science theme, in the end both will true.
Comment by cap10tripps — February 9, 2007 @ 7:54 am
Sorry about the double post. I just wanted to explain the Eden theory a little. In the bible Jacob had a son named Benjamin. Adam and Eve (our nicknamed skeletons?) were kicked out of the garden for giving into temptation and god actually created a sort of guard or security system (the name escapes me although I recall something with a glistening sword) to keep his creations from disturbing this sacred area. Perhaps the black smoke (which flashes when extending a sword like shape in Eckos death) is protecting the question mark in the center (Locke sees this when the hatch starts closing itself). Maybe this question mark is an answer (tree of life) that we are not meant to have, but will hopefully get by seasons end.
Comment by cap10tripps — February 9, 2007 @ 8:13 am
Hey, Captain Trips - long time no see! Don’t know if you’re already read this elsewhere, but in light of your comments concerning science versus faith, I thought it might be useful to post this, an Amazon review I did of The Holographic Universe by Michael Talbot…..one other comment: the control of access to knowledge that seems to be tightening as the 21st century unfolds is of dire concern to me; increasingly, newer generations are being conditioned to believe that the only valid knowledge comes from science and the halls of higher education exclusively rather than the tacit information resident - and resonant - in all of us…..
Reactions Lay Bare Science’s Persistent Crisis of Creativity (5 stars)
As there have already been many reviews concerning the
ideas advanced by Michael Talbot in his profoundly
influential book The Holographic Universe, I want to
refrain from reiterating them. Instead, I’ll comment
upon a number of reviews that only underline the
continuing need for such books, and speak of those
times when religion and science were virtually one and
the same. The tales and memories of outrageous abuses
committed in serving that worldview may be what
continue to dissuade many scientists and realists from
embracing a reinformed version of that genuinely
troubled - and troubling - marriage.
Yet science has become, in so many ways, just another
religion, choked off by the same dogma that holds our
species hostage to a diminished, controlling idea of
the reason for our being, Like religion, science is
defined by a collection of beliefs that are
substantiated within the context and boundaries of
accepted understanding, failing to imagine that there
are demonstrable answers and additional information to
be had beyond them. But as with religion, science so
often falls short because it cannot acknowledge the
diversity of human - life - experience, that many
outcomes cannot be repeated due to our beliefs
affecting them, the most powerful notion that The
Holographic Universe explores in every kind of light.
This is also what allows joyless and dreary showmen
such as James ‘The Amazing’ Randi to take advantage of
similarly unquestioning skeptics, creating a cynical,
self-fulfilling prophecy. It is truly terrifying to
contemplate that others can exert such power over the
direction of events in our lives as would a voodoo
practitioner or kahuna (although both work in response
to their victims’ belief capacity) yet as with the
clarity of purpose and direction that follows so many
near-death experiences (including those of Talbot’s)
the awareness of this capability and how it relates to
our true multidimensional nature (that, as the book
suggests, of all matter) results in a self-policing
sense of responsibility that rarely falls prey to
material need or weaknesses. The inherent (and
somewhat irrational) fear of this demonstrates a
distinct lack of faith in humankind’s capacity to
evolve.
What is faith? It is not another term for religion
itself, but instead the spiritual maturing of a
fundamental belief system, the butterfly of elegant
understanding that emerges from a rough-hewn cocoon.
More than anything else, spirituality is a recognition
of relationships and interconnectedness, common
origins in the energetic realm; faith, THE BELIEF THAT
THERE ARE ANSWERS TO EVERY QUESTION POSED, AND THAT
THEY ARE AVAILABLE TO EVERY PERSON. Science also
requires some faith, at least a belief, in the
viability of a theory or hypothesis. When what came to
be modern science rose up during the Rennaissance as a
reaction to an unenlightened Dark Age (yet not
necessarily giving the lie to alchemy, a very
misunderstood pursuit to this day) it was attended by
curious, extraordinarily driven individuals such as
Leonardo da Vinci, Galileo, Copernicus and even Sir
Isaac Newton whose creative tendencies led them to
rarely-visited paths of inquiry and what were then
decidedly radical ideas. The atrophying of just such a
creative process and the aforementioned fear of abuse
is what prevents many of us from attending the
remarriage of science and faith, failing to make the
distinction between the latter and religion.
Nearly sixteen years ago, The Holographic Universe
strongly suggested that marriage needn’t forever be an
unhappy one and can give life to a far richer view of
just what Man and matter truly are, help us to
visualize a more meaningful existence, seen through
the eyes of both.
Comment by ogam5 — February 9, 2007 @ 8:20 am
Thanks sean, I see now.
I like TheDarkness’ Asimov’s “Foundation” theory. So, maybe Alvar Hanso discovered (or created?) this island and its black-hole-like characteristics. He then realized that this would eventually destroy earth and had to come up with a way to stop it. He then put in place certain measure to stop this, The Hanso Foundation and The Dharma Initiative. But maybe that wasn’t enough so he had to bring in more people from the outside to help save it all. He then orchestrated everyone’s live that were on that plane to bring them all there together at once so they could work together to stop it. That might explain why everyones lives are so freakishly connected. Hanso is basically controlling their fate to lead them here for some purpose.
Maybe. I don’t know.
Comment by AnotherOther — February 9, 2007 @ 8:43 am
So many people seem to be ignoring when Tom said something to the effect of “Since the sky turned purple…” implying why they couldn’t leave. This happens right before Jack nicks the Artery in Ben’s spine.
That seemed such an obvious clue to me.
Comment by Brandon — February 9, 2007 @ 10:26 am
at this rate, did anyone notice that a swan looks like a wormhole and that a pearl looks like a hole (which might be black?)
Comment by Josh — February 9, 2007 @ 10:43 am
Ah, but they found out about Ben’s tumor two days before 815 crashed, somewhere between 55 and 60 days *before* the hatch implosion. *That’s* what’s really telling. We can assume one of the following to be true:
1) There’s a big gaping plot hole that makes black holes look rather pathetic by comparison. (Unlikely…I hope.)
2) The “sky turned purple” at some point *before* 815’s crash, but at some point at least after Juliet’s arrival on the island some 3+ years ago. (Possible…but Tom’s reference to this incident sure made it sound like it was recent.)
3) The Others somehow knew that their window for leaving the island would be closed for some length of time while simultaneously not being privvy to the development of Ben’s condition. This could be accounted for by some Desmond-esque limited foresight or some sort of calculated/determined knowledge indicating they wouldn’t be able to leave the island in a given period. OR, we could assume that time does indeed work differently on the island somehow and they’re accustomed to dealing with it in non-linear terms.
Comment by Richard Lennox — February 9, 2007 @ 10:43 am
According to recent statements by the producers, and per the timeline that’s been suggested in the show, the events that are currently transpiring in Lost are taking place in late November 2004, possibly very early December 2004. At the end of ”Not In Portland,” a character reveals the exact amount of time that he/she has been on the island.
When you do the math, you will get an Estimated Date that comes suspiciously close to the exact date of an infamous, real-world catastrophe. Coincidence?
Comment by D Garza — February 9, 2007 @ 10:43 am
According to recent statements by the producers, and per the timeline that’s been suggested in the show, the events that are currently transpiring in Lost are taking place in late November 2004, possibly very early December 2004. At the end of ”Not In Portland,” a character reveals the exact amount of time that he/she has been on the island.
When you do the math, you will get an Estimated Date that comes suspiciously close to the exact date of an infamous, real-world catastrophe. Coincidence?
Comment by D Garza — February 9, 2007 @ 10:45 am
Wow….One new show and it’s quantum physics time!
Where were you all during the hiatus? It’s like school’s back in session…..
Doc- This post grew some legs, brother…It’s longer than your hair!
Great work by everyone, lots of goodies to think about….
Comment by El Prez — February 9, 2007 @ 10:54 am
Captain Tripps,
just wanted to add this: Damon and Carlton said that the “Man of Science, Man of Faith” title was not in reference to both Jack and Locke, but instead just describes Jack. as at the core Jack is a man of science, but is slowly becoming a man of faith. So i think this helps your argument that in the end, both science and faith will be prevelant.
Comment by dr. nope — February 9, 2007 @ 11:16 am
Thank you for reminding me (man of science/faith). Still, Locke is the antithesis of Jack. He himself struggles with science vs. faith though leaning towards faith. The purple sky supports a black hole like theory, and will bring Walt and Michael back (or maybe just an older Walt). A black hole like theory would also explain Walt’s growth. Their really seems to be a space/time issue as well as a religious/cultish issue with this Jacob fellow and old Smokey. By the way does anyone think Patchy is this Jacob dude?
Comment by cap10tripps — February 9, 2007 @ 11:50 am
I have a quick question to throw out that maybe someone on here can provide some answers to. Has anyone given thought to the reason that hieroglyphics were used in the hatch when the timer reached zero? There has to be a degree of significance in this, and granted the hatch is gone now, but any ideas? By the way, nice discussion, it is a great thing to see people in this world who still actively use their minds.
Comment by Nick — February 9, 2007 @ 11:51 am
This thing about Walt coming back older: Does the island SLOW the aging process? either through it’s magnetic properties or tree of life or black hole/time continuum possibilities?
Think about the xray Mr Alpert showed Juliet. She said it belonged to an elderly woman and he said, it actually belonged to a 27 year old and how would she like to find out how that’s possible….
Jack told Ben that his tumor was almost beyond operable. Anyone think Ben was born with the tumor and it’s just taken this long to threaten his life? Or that he wants to get off the island but as soon as he does, the real world time will catch up with him, aging him and causing the tumor to kill him?
By the way, this post has gone from black holes to hieroglyphics….talk about running the table…
Comment by El Prez — February 9, 2007 @ 12:05 pm
Time is slower on the island for whatever reason (magnetic fields/black hole). This explains Desmond’s ability to see the future as it has already happened (he’s operating on earthly time). This could also be used to explain how after traveling aimlessly out in the ocean for a month or so Walt would seem to have aged too fast (when in actuality everyone on the island ages slower). It would also explain why a 27 year old would have the womb of a 60-70 year old. Juliet has possibly been kept their for many more earthly years. There are so many possibilities for stories to get into that it seems the show could go longer than the 94-100 episodes predicted by its creators. Although “Not in Portland” opened so many cans of worms that they might be accellerating the questions/answers process. Is a four toed statue a past civilization? Who is Patchy and did he remove his own eye so Smokey couldn’t look into his soul? Who the hell is Jacob and when will we be getting into that? Does Penny know Desmond is there or is she searching for an electromagnetic anomally her father told her about? Libby/Hurley? The numbers? The others? The other others? Hieroglyphics? The question mark? Will I ever get back to work? Tune in next time… Seriously, this is the most thought provoking blog I’ve been a part of. Thanks to those of you keeping my brain alive.
Comment by cap10tripps — February 9, 2007 @ 12:30 pm
I forgot my favorite questions. Who or what is Smokey? And what is his/her/its purpose? What the hell is that noise when Smokey’s coming?
Comment by cap10tripps — February 9, 2007 @ 12:34 pm
“So, if you really can get off the island, why didn’t you just take him to a facility? Why all this”
“Because ever since the sky turned purple, we…..”
Don’t you think Mr. Friendly was about to say “haven’t been able to communicate with the outside world and arrange it?”
Maybe the submarine is a short-range vessel. The boats we’ve seen obviously would take awhile (longer than Ben has to live) to reach an adequate medical facility. Perhaps, they didn’t realize how dire Ben’s situation was until after Jack looked at the x-ray, or they have some rule against leaving the islands unless it is the only way to save someone’s life. This would explain why they didn’t send Ben to a medical facility earlier and why they cannot do so now. It also seems alot more plausible than a black hole on the island.
Comment by Simple Explanations — February 9, 2007 @ 12:41 pm
Good point about Ben. He did say he had been on this island most of his life. Maybe as a child he was brought here by his family and his tumor is only now affecting his life. Also I was thinking, the actor who plays Ben said there will be a shakeup in the others hiearchy. Maybe Ben and Juliet leave together now that Ben’s tumor is removed. Maybe Jack gains a following of his own amongst the others. Maybe the creepy lady telling Jack about his tats has a sinister agenda. Alright, I’ll chill out for awhile.
Comment by cap10tripps — February 9, 2007 @ 12:47 pm
El Prez’s interesting point about Ben would support why he couldn’t leave the island. I’ll reitterate, good point about Ben Prez. Screw it, I’m not going back to work.
Comment by cap10tripps — February 9, 2007 @ 12:52 pm
Nick, in answer to your question regarding the hieroglyphics, I don’t think that they’re insignificant - we get a further hint with the 4-toed statue that there is a strong Egyptian influence attached to the island’s past (4 toes is one of Anubis’ attributes, the half-man, half jackal hybrid god) and there are distinct linguistic connections between Egyptian, Greek and Polynesian (Hawai’ian in particular) not to mention some genetic evidence as well, of cross-cultural exchanges between the Mediterranean and Pacific. But the bigger question that remains is, why did DHARMA incorporate it into their operations? All the various stations known from reveals and the blast door map are also names of constellations - surely that was more than a mere homage…..also, as has been noted previously, the Big Dipper appears to be wrong in the night sky of one scene, but even weirder still, Leonard’s Connect Four game pieces form the shape of it. So what exactly are D & C trying to tell us, anyhow? That the survivors of Flight 815 are actually lost in a time time when the Big Dipper was in a different position? I’ve yet to see a really satisfying answer to this series of ckues…..
And El Prez, as for your query about how the island is affecting the aging process, we may have had a major hint given and seemingly explained away by Hurley’s hoarding (Hugo’s question: can anybody explain why I haven’t lost any weight? asked well before the Swan pantry discovery and subsequent hoarding reveal) but I’ve thought for quite some time now that the omnipresent vaccine might not only provide regenerative support, transmuting cancer cells (as in the case of Juliet’s sister Rachel) but slow down metabolism to such an extent that aging would be virtually arrested with the aid of Hanso’s artificial electromagnetic stasis field - not sure how the attendant weight gain would be prevented, however…..ideas?
Comment by ogam5 — February 9, 2007 @ 12:53 pm
And an addendum: Time would (un)naturally pass by more slowly on the island with an artificial EMF because, as I noted earlier in this thread, vibrational rates decrease markedly under the influence of stronger electromagnetic fields - hence the biblical concept of ‘the quickening’, at a juncture where the Earth’s aggregate EMF strength decreases and matter is allowed to vibrate at a higher rate (another Eden allegory, considering that a. negative cosmic influences such as ultraviolet light or gamma radiation diminish with a stronger EMF and better physical health is promoted; b. ‘innocence’, even freedom from responsiblity, is lost as a result of higher-realm universal secrets becoming accessible…..)
Comment by ogam5 — February 9, 2007 @ 1:14 pm
This of course may mean that at some point we’ll be treated to “Unchained Melody” by the Righteous Brothers (especially relevant lyric: “Time goes by so slowly, and Time…..can do…..so much”, probably sung by Desmond at series’ end and Penny shows up just as he sings, “Are you…..still MIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNE?”)
Comment by ogam5 — February 9, 2007 @ 1:31 pm
It also seems the two main “lostaways” are Locke and Jack (Man of Faith, Man of Science).
Ah yes, but the Man of Science has become the sacrifical lamb.
Comment by PirateJenny — February 9, 2007 @ 1:48 pm
So about time being slowed. Claire still gave birth in the correct amount of time, so it may not always have been that way. One theory I’ve heard is that time was concurrent on the island and the rest of the world until Desmond had to use the failsafe.
Or it’s possible whatever the Others were injecting her with was to speed up the birth, I suppose.
And didn’t Ben say he’d been born on the island?
I also don’t think Alex is a cloned Rosseau–I think she’s the daughter that was kidnapped. She would have been pretty young when it happened so it would have been easy for everyone to convince her Ben was her father.
Comment by PirateJenny — February 9, 2007 @ 1:59 pm
Sacrificial lamb?
Comment by cap10tripps — February 9, 2007 @ 2:03 pm
A good question about Aaron, PirateJenny - but I think that he was far along enough in his development that Claire’s baby was born more or less on schedule (as I mentioned, but didn’t reference his name, with regard to Maurice Cotterell’s research into how physiological attributes are determined not just by ‘genetics’ - the role of which is misunderstood and more than likely exaggerated in the process - but planetary-based baseline values at conception, so Aaron’s systemic profile was already formed when Oceanic 815 crashed…..yes, astrology has played a huge role in human health, as the overwhelming historical evidence indicates, particularly with the Maya). To expound upon the whole genetic misconception (no pun intended) predispositions to physical vulnerabilities are directly related to the Sun’s interaction with, you guessed it, Earth’s electromagnetic field. Lastly, the other bootie hasn’t dropped where Aaron is concerned, either - there may still be physical consequences as a result of his being born on the island after being somehow treated by the Others…..
Comment by ogam5 — February 9, 2007 @ 2:42 pm
The burning question in my mind is: Is Ben a descendant of people living on the island pre-dharma or was he born to young scientists who were part of the dharma initiative and then aged unnaturally fast? The old lady who we saw in the first scene of episode 3X01 and the way she interacted with Juliette now makes me think that they are close to the same age and aged differently since the old lady has probably been on the island longer…
Comment by Charlie Lesoine — February 9, 2007 @ 3:54 pm
Don’t you think Mr. Friendly was about to say “haven’t been able to communicate with the outside world and arrange it?”
Certainly. The problem I’m pointing out is that, according to Ben, they knew about the need for surgery two days prior to the crash. The sky didn’t turn purple until just *after* they’d taken Jack, Kate, and Sawyer captive. They didn’t *need* Jack until *after* the hatch implosion…unless of course they either a) knew it was going to happen regardless and there was nothing they could do to stop it (hence Ben’s lack of real concern over Locke pushing or not pushing the button?) or b) there was something that happened *before* that had cut off their contact with the outside world. The Others sure didn’t look surprised at the sound and light show, although Tom’s addressing of the issue in Wednesday’s episode seemed to indicate puzzlement over what was going on, at least from his own perspective.
Comment by Richard Lennox — February 9, 2007 @ 4:20 pm
The others were not surprised by the purple light, but I don’t think they know exactly what all the consequences are of not pushing the button, for example, the com systems being screwed up. They obviously didnt think Ben’s tumor was very urgent because none of them are surgeons and had no way of assessing it. They weren’t planning on getting Jack to do the surgery so soon or maybe not at all, hence Ben saying to Jack “we had such a brilliant plan to break you, Jack” and how that plan got shot to shit when Jack explained how urgent the surgery was. Also, if they new about the tumor 2 days before the crash, then either they had other earlier xrays, or the one’s Jack saw are older than we are led to believe, and the tumors progression is being slowed by the islands powers. Remember Jack saying something about if the xrays were more than two weeks old, the person didnt have very long to live.
Comment by Charlie Lesoine — February 9, 2007 @ 5:07 pm
Hey Lost Fans! Just a question regarding Ben..During Season 3 Ben disclosed to Jack that he did indeed have a tumor in his back and asked Jack if he believed in God. To which Jack responded “Do You?” Then Ben commented that after finding out about the tumor a spinal surgeon fell from the sky. Point being, this all supposedly occurred before the implosion and what Tom referenced last week as “before the sky turned purple….SO, why did Ben never seek treatment elsewhere?
Comment by JohnW — February 9, 2007 @ 6:57 pm
This site and you guys who post on it are amazing. Great work. It blows my mind that NO ONE (unless I missed it) has commented on the fact that the smoke monster is present in the scene where the bus hits Juliet’s ex. Everyone is so wrapped up in seeing the Apollo logo on the side of the bus that they have missed what I think is the biggest reveal of the episode. If you freeze and advance a frame at a time, you will clearly see a wall of black smoke in front of the bus. As far as I’m aware, this is the first time we’ve seen Smokey OFF the island, if Juliet’s flashbacks are indeed “off” the island. Again, I can’t believe there hasn’t been discussion about this.
Comment by Gus — February 13, 2007 @ 11:33 am
Sure, there was. You can continue on to the grassy knoll, now.
Comment by Thom — February 13, 2007 @ 2:49 pm
Just wanted to drop a note i dont think has been touched on (unless im wrong.)
At the end of S2-E13 “THE LONG CON” when Sayid hooks the radio up for Hurley and they get reception Sayid says something like “its coming from another place” and Hurley says “or maybe some other time.”
Comment by Christopher — February 13, 2007 @ 7:10 pm
I have an explanation to offer and a question to ask, first the question:
What has become of the small plane with the two men playing chess shown detecting the electromagnetic pulse (or whatever it was) when the hatch blew? I do not have the espiode but I believe one of those two is the physicist friend of Desmond, however with the alternate timeline scenario that the recent episode has provided, I am not sure that plane should still be there. At first I thought the physicist started to believe Desmond’s story when certain events started happening, such as the circumstances of his disappearance and the date of the crash of the airline plane, etc. Presumably, he also knew the date the hatch would blow, and arranged to fly over the Pacific with equipment to detect the pulse in order to locate Desmond.
However, this timeline appears to have actually ocurred because we see the Jewelery woman appear again, but events are now slightly different (in addition Charlie should now have recognized Desmond). There appear to be many inconsistancies and I would give the writers the benefit of the doubt that none of these was truly accidental.
I offer an explanation as to the more traditionally “SF” themes of the show. I do not think black holes were specifically mentioned anywhere within the text of the show and that many people here have been using that term to refer to a very generalized and very controversial theory involving the nature of the universe. The current accepted model of the world is that there is only one universe, however a theory that is again finding proponents in the scientific community but that was much more popular in past decades holds that it is one of a countless number, this is collectively termed the multiverse and this is a concept that television shows have loved to employ. In the multiverse there is no such thing as time travel, only travel between universes. The caveats are that every universe is either significantly or insignificantly different. The law of probability dictates that the change would be undetectable, such as the spin of one electron in the center of a star galaxies away. Of course it could be something more significant, such as a soccer ball missing a goal - the fatalistic tendencies of the show do not here reflect this theory-as-supported-by-members-of-the-scientific-community, of course.
The other important part of this theory as it exists on paper are that each universe is self-contained, and that while travel between them is theoretically possible, the collapsing of one cannot affect another, and the changes in one (even if it is similar in every visible way) which exists further back in the linear time-line cannot affect another universe in a later time-line, ever, because that time does not exist, it is a property of distance, not a dimension.
I have no idea if this would help but thought I should mention it. As far as Lost is concerned, it seems they are taking the parts of this well-known theory that the writers like, and are taking a very “spiritual” view on it, also popular (among pseudo-intellectuals) in past decades. This involves consciousness as energy, as existing in all universes where that individual exists, and the phenomenon of deja-vu as the oscillation of one parallel universe through another in the higher dimensions. This has no proponents in the scienfitic community of any era of this or the past century but it is interesting in relation to the circumstances of the hatch explosion and the visions of Desmond.
P.S. I’ve enjoyed reading everyone’s ideas above, but contend the (or a) universe has too much inertia to collapse or in some other way “disappear” due to any action which could be produced in the visible universe, even if one took all possible light-matter into consideration - it could never be enough to halt expansion, and if one assumes the universe is not expanding, it could never be enough to contract it (and to be hypothetical, if it were, the collapse would take the same length of time of expansion which is at least 18bys. It is, however, interesting to me how time would be perceived in a collapsing universe.
Comment by Kir — February 14, 2007 @ 10:21 pm
A wormhole would be a more “plausible” explanation to Desmond’s time travel (if that’s what really happened to him) than a black hole.
So far there was only one attempt to leave the island, so i don’t know why so many people seem to think it is impossible or even difficult to do so.
But personally i’m much more inclined to believe in a psychological/parapsychological explanation for the island than one based in physics, i can’t really see how you can explain the fact that so many of them had crossed paths in life prior to being stuck on the island, with canonical science.
Comment by KiosK — February 17, 2007 @ 6:01 am
Regarding time travel, black holes, etc. Here is what Damon Lindelof said in 2005:
As the show progresses, he added, it won’t venture too far into science fiction as its mysteries unfold. “We’re still trying to be … firmly ensconced in the world of science fact,” he said in an interview. “I don’t think we’ve shown anything on the show yet … that has no rational explanation in the real world that we all function within. We certainly hint at psychic phenomena, happenstance and … things being in a place where they probably shouldn’t be. But nothing is flat-out impossible. There are no spaceships. There isn’t any time travel.”
So either the creator’s clues are not reliable and thus all bets are off or the time travel hypothesis is toast. Assuming the latter, my guess is that the possible means of transcending space and time is not technological but based in manipulation of consciousess as for example is characterized in various Hindu and Buddhist texts.
If we go with the other possibility and consider time travel seriously then there are several things to question. First, as I recall time travel is via wormholes and not blackholes. A blackhole of any size couldn’t be contained and passing beyond the event horizon would be certain death. Small blackholes such as might be created by particle accelerators only last for an instant and are highly unlikely in any event. Creation and/or manipulation of wormholes would require super-duper advanced technology, if it’s even possible at all. Second, what kind of time travel is being invoked? Straight time travel requires a blockworld in which so-called past, present and future events are equally real (as implied by special relativity via the relativity of simultaneity). From a God’s eye POV nothing happens in such a world and nothing can be changed. If you travel back in time and give Christ a drink of water then you always did. A couple good examples here would be 12 Monkeys and Dr. Manhattan in the Watchmen. Billy Pilgrim in Slaughterhouse Five is presumbly in a blockworld but the problem there is some kind of meta-being is required–the one who jumps around through spacetime. Now if we take the business about universal “course correction” seriously, this implies not the determinism of a frozen spacetime jewel but the fatalism of an open universe in which some events must transpire no matter what else happens. Fate certainly seems to play a big role in Lost, but note that fate is inherently a supernatural notion beyond scientific explanation–let us hope that the Deus Ex Machina of fatalism is not the creator’s final explanation for all the weirdness. A non-supernatural take on all this is a time travel story in which the future can be changed by mucking around in the past, such as Back to the Future. Better to call such stories possibility travel or travel through possible worlds. A good example and one that bears many similarities to Lost is John Varley’s classic Millennium. Similarities include: plane crash, saving the world, end times, weirdness with giving birth, universal course correction, etc. Another kind of possibility travel story is one involving some kind of multiverse–a hot idea at the moment. Perhaps there are multiple copies of each character and maybe some characters such as Des “travel through” the multiverse. Thus all the unlikely interconnections between characters would span the multiverse but this means treating the flashbacks and memories as referring not to one world but to many. I do wonder sometimes if it’s a mistake to take the flashbacks at face value–though the creator’s comments always suggest the narrators are reliable.
If we take the creator’s collective comments over the last couple of years as Gospel then we are forced to rule out almost every theory (such as supernatural, super-sci fi, time travel, virtual reality, dreams/hallucination/insanity, etc) that might explain all the weirdness. What’s left? You know what Sherlock H. would say at this juncture. In any case some vast conspiracy is going to be required just to explain the highly unlikely interconnections among the characters, not to mention all the synchronicity, fatalism and karmic elements. How can it be true that all this will truly be explained and without recourse to either the supernatural or the super-scientific? Good luck! My guess is the mystical elements run deeper than the scientific.
Comment by Michael S. — February 18, 2007 @ 12:21 am
All very interesting subjects Kir and Mike S. Where my thoughts are regarding Des and the “time travel” is that his conscious mind is being transferred from concussion to concussion. Perhaps at some point in the future (as I believe a past plane of existence would imply a future plane also) Des has learned to control his “looping.” It seems the Desmond emerging naked from the hatch is a more controlled/subdued man than the one we see go through his first “loop” in “Flashes Before Your Eyes.” If you can accept that idea (whether it be this universe or a multiverse), then it seems as if he is up to something. It is also my belief that Ms. Hawking is a “looper” who is up to her own agenda or that of the others or the other others. I think we are seeing the beginnings of a battle of fate vs. science or Desmond vs. the others (or other others). We know fate vs. science is a very strong theme (if not THE theme) of the show. I think Desmond is trying to manipulate fate to include a better outcome for all involved on our island, while his adversaries are trying to manipulate fate to serve their agenda (w/ plenty of collateral damage along the way). It is his ultimate redemption (of whatever the hell he did) that will save these “lostaways.”
Comment by cap10tripps — February 18, 2007 @ 6:00 pm
By the way, I remember reading quotes from the creators insinuating that faith and science will tie into each other. It’s my belief that these are not two seperate entities as has been portrayed in this world but one in the same…
Comment by cap10tripps — February 18, 2007 @ 6:05 pm
What’s the nature of the looping Cap10tripps? If Des literally went back in time then why didn’t he encounter his past self? I can imagine two answers: 1) like Billy Pilgrim in Slaughterhouse Five only his consciousness is jumping around and that consciousness contains “memories” of the past and the future. But again, this requires a meta-consciousness unless only one of his spacetimes slices is ever conscious at any given “time.” 2) the looping or “time travel” is via closed time-like curves (CTCs), in which case you could loop body and soul. If you travel along one of these paths you would end up at the place and time from which you started. The events along a CTC cannot be temporally ordered in the usual way since each event occurs both earlier and later than all the others. Even if there are no naturally occurring CTCs in the universe they might be created by very advanced technology. For example, it’s known that a very quickly rotating cylinder of very dense matter might create a CTC–something like this “Tipler time machine” is used in Contact as I recall. For example, by flying a spaceship around the cylinder several times you could potentially return to Earth before you took off. There is some suggestion that a cylinder of infinite length might be required. But again, aside from the engineering problems, this all seems highly implausible if we take the creators at their word. Or Des might have been experiencing the less exotic (but still wildly exotic) closed causal loop in which A causes B causes C causes A. The Terminator employees one of these. But he would still need a time machine and it doesn’t explain seeing the future, etc. A final further absurd possibility involves the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics (distinct from the multiverse)in which case each character would have many, many different analogues on different “branches” of the universal wave function. Such branches are thought not to interact or interfer with one another due to environmental decoherence, but perhaps they are doing so in Lost. Maybe the characters are literally quantum mechanically entangled. Again, this all seems implausible.
What bothers me about all these scenarios is why only some people such as Des and lady Hawking are experiencing the spatiotemporal weirdness? And furthermore, all these scenarios involve deterministic worlds and not worlds with open futures as is implied by the “course correction” talk and by all the karmic do-overs.
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